I'm currently on my second startup-- I cashed out of my first a couple years ago.

At the time I was starting my first, my eldest daughter, then 2 years old, was diagnosed with leukemia, and between that time and cashing out, my wife and I had three more children, and she lost her father to cancer.

My point is: life happens, often while you're busy making other plans.

Other people here have brought up the "late hours" issue. Obviously, you and your spouse ought to both be comfortable about the kind of hours you keep.

But another issue-- more important, in my book-- is how you and your spouse relate to risk. Startups are, by their nature, perceived as being riskier than a stable, nine-to-five job. (Whether they actually are or not is immaterial-- it's the perception that's relevant here.)

When I got started, it became clear to me that I had a much higher tolerance for financial risk than my wife. This was not a problem, as I was able to make it clear to her that if there was ever a problem providing security for the family, I'd give up the startup and get a "real job".

By the way: based on your "possibly one with kids, ugh" comment, I'd suggest you make sure that you and your spouse are on the same page as more fundamental things as well. If you view the possibility of children as warranting an "ugh", you should be working to remove that possibility, for the sake of the eventual kids, if nothing else.

For a while I had a partner with a small child; I'd get up at lunchtime, handle my email, go collect the small child from daycare, go back to programming, we'd eat together, then I'd work some more until it was small child bedtime. I did bedtime, then came back downstairs and spend an hour or so with my partner, then vanish and hack until 5am or so.

If the small child woke up in the night, I dealt with it, she got up at 7.30am or so when the small child woke up properly so I could sleep. At the weekend we'd make sure I found time to go take the kid to the playground or something so we could spend an hour or two being silly together, and every few weekends my parents would turn up and we'd go for a day trip.

Overall it worked pretty well - she and I eventually broke up but that was due to factors other than work/family balance.

I'm 28, married with 3 kids, house, full-time job, etc., and doing a startup on the side. In my experience, having a supportive wife, not just someone who will "let" me work 2-3 hours a night, but someone who believes in what I'm trying to do, makes all the difference. There are enough stresses in family life as it is. Add to that the stress of a startup, and without someone who is on board and has bought into it, and willingly bears all the crazy stuff that goes along, I promise it will be a disaster.

Also, the sooner you make money off the start-up, the better. Having something tangible to show for the hours you're away from your S.O. helps the situation tremendously.

For me, I try to stay balanced as much as possible. If I need to take a night or two off of hacking a week to watch a movie with my wife, or take my kids out and stay up past their bedtime, or just grab some beers and do nothing, I do it. You're only hurting yourself (and, by extension, your startup) by burning the candle at both ends, so don't feel bad about taking a night off. I also play it by ear on Saturdays and don't do any work on Sundays.

The toughest thing, I have found, is to be mentally and emotionally "present" with my family when I am not working. Doing a startup is all-consuming. If you give 100% of yourself during your family time, it will make it easier for them to deal with you not being around.

It's the best. The year I lived in with my fiancee was the most enjoyable. She is a gigging musician, so we pretty much see eye to eye.

Nothing motivates like a rock chick kicking through door in boots and telling you "we killed baby!" :-D

We both get up around noon and get on our laptops. Sometimes she walks around the apartment like a zombie, humming to herself, then grabs the guitars and goes into frantic improv and song writing. I walk around too, with a notepad, and run to Emacs to jot down ideas. It's hypnotic to code to the sound of the same chords being played over and over again. I could hear a song change from form to another, over the span of a few hours, just as my code migrates from a scratch buffer, to its own file, then to a full fledged directory with a page-long Changelog.

We both go through the hustle; we collect dimes from various paypal and CC accounts, drive to venues and get cash, chase invoices, and by the end of the week we have a fat little wallet that we're giddy over.

I love my girl.

Ever thought of going in to poetry?

"Startups take over your life" is a social construct. It happens because we expect it to happen, because we model it as "success", because we demand it from ourselves, and because we look at anyone who it isn't happening to as a failure.

My business is, in many ways (such as measuring by hours), the easiest job I've ever had.

I respectfully disagree. Your business is not a start-up of the kind where that is likely to happen, but there is more than one kind of start-up.

The kind of start-up where you have a fairly large capital outlay, where you have to hire a bunch of people from day one and where there is significant pressure from windows of opportunity and a race to market can easily go out of control in this respect.

The other thing that can turn your world upside down is a real success, or a real setback when you're moving ahead full steam.

Forgive me for being all Toyota-y, but we have a specific definition of "out of control", and it is not "the specific anticipated consequence of a policy which is culturally celebrated and is considered one of the defining features of our industry."

I have some other issues with the assumption that any CRUD app can reasonably be said to be racing to market in 2010. Many "real" startups, for whatever definition of "real" one wants, have been technically viable for every single day of the last ten years. The race is also a social construct. The world will little note nor long remember the first mover in groupons (hint: not Groupon).

CRUD apps are only a very thin slice of the whole spectrum though.

When you have a few hundred K of your own hard earned cash and a few million of investors money, as well as the livelihood of a number of people riding on your start-up succeeding or tanking and you hit a significant road block there is a very big temptation to dig in and try to save the company at the expense of your private life. Even in situations not quite as dramatic the temptation is there.

It may work, it may fail, there may be private consequences, there may not be. But that all depends on the circumstances, and those are not specified.

Yes, and to go into a business like that, and shape it in such a way that you have to work it like that, is a choice - ergo a social construct. An accidental, not platonic, trait of startups.

Agreed. You maybe work a bit more hours (but honestly, if you want to compete at a 9-5 you are really working more like 8-7pm anyways.), but the hours happen when and where you want them to happen, which can maximize time with loved ones.

Case in point, sometimes my girlfriend works at my office. How is that possible at a normal job? Or taking a week off just to go work at your parents cabin? That kind of out-of-office working is just not possible or a great idea in the normal work force.

One thing I will say: Doing a startup by yourself would be almost impossible with a serious relationship. You need at least one partner to watch your back when you can't be on duty (which happens twice as often in a serious relationship, I've found).

Is it fair to compare your last job as a Japanese salaryman, in terms of number of hours worked, to the average programming job? Aren't the hours really long for Japanese salarymen?

I would disagree a little.

I have been in several startups, and a couple of projects in not-large companies. Much of this time it was a struggle not to be doing the project all the time.

The things that we were working on I found seriously personally exciting, and in fact, the most recent one, my advisor in the effort all but forced me to keep "reasonable" hours. Reasonable converged on 12 hours.

I'm married (9 years) and have 2 kids (throw in house mortgage as well.) I've been working on start ups for the last 3 years. I left a very good, high paying, stable job to work with startups. The first key thing is getting your wife on board. There is a lot more risk and stress with startups. Make sure both of you understand this issue. Money is already a big stress on marriages and you are about to make that situation worse in the short term. The other big issue (at least in the states) is health insurance. It costs a lot more that I would like.

The startup I work at is a great fit. We are boot strapped and profitable. We are not trying to be the next google/twitter/facebook, so slow growth fits our lifestyle fine. There have been lean times over the last year which adds financial stress, but I have fall back plan of getting a real job at any time which provides a nice safety net. It pays to have a good network to leverage when you need it. I work from home, so that allows me to work mostly normal hours and still get to see my wife and kids a lot. I carve out a few evenings to put in extra hours. I also carve out date nights with my wife.

So I don't see any issue with being a startup and being married. There is never the perfect time to start a startup. The best time is now.

One problem to consider if you are working on your startup from home is the danger of constant interruptions. It can be hard on your family, especially your wife, to "not be allowed" to interrupt you. You have to remember that your family interrupts you because they care about you and they want you involved in their lives, but at the same time you have to find a way to tactfully get them to stay away from your office during your workday.

Sitting almost perfectly still in front of a computer and concentrating for hours and hours at a stretch is not a natural act. Humans are wired to get involved with the social activities going on around them. Depending on the difficulty of what you are working on, a few family interruptions per day or a too-high noise level from elsewhere in the house can destroy the quality of your work for the entire day.

Interruptions are also a big problem in a traditional office environment, but there you have much less invested in your efficiency. If management isn't willing to pay for private offices where the staff can concentrate properly -- then they get what they pay for and its not really the programmer's job to question it. At least everybody in a shared office area is in the same boat and everybody suffers from the same distractions.

In a startup, however, interruptions can ruin you and must be dealt with.

This is so true. I have a really hard time getting my girl friend to understand that I can't carry a conversation while coding... I brought it on myself trying to work in the same room she does though. If I could I would 100% have a private area to work in. I dream of having a house with a PRIVATE study right now.

why not go to a cafe?

It is possibly more difficult to concentrate in a cafe (if by "cafe" you mean something like Starbucks or Second Cup), what with all the people coming in and out and all the chatter.

I have not extensively tried to work or study in a cafe myself, so I don't know how well I cope with all the distraction.

A couple of points to make here:

1) A start-up is just a business of your own design. It may be that you're in tech but the whole concept of running the business side of things is really no different from opening your own restaurant, dry cleaners, or becoming some sort of contractor or realtor. You are self employed and must rely on yourself to bring home the bacon. The vast majority of people in the world are in this position (and create the most jobs according to the latest surveys).

2) Work is not life if you also wish to have a family. If you prioritize work over family then you are bound to fail at one or both. Through proper time/resource management you can enjoy both immensely and successfully.

I have a wife and two kids. They do take up (I mean, deserve and I enjoy giving) a lot of time. Having a family is incredibly exciting and there ar joys to be found there that cannot be found anywhere else. If, however, you prioritize work over them you will quickly find yourself on the road to an unhappy household. I know far too many who ended up in divorce and have nothing but regrets for the opportunity they squandered there.

A very wise and successful entrepreneur once remarked to me when I asked them about balancing work and family that I would likely make as much money as I did even if I didn't work as long as I did. It's not about putting in all those hours. It's about putting in smarter hours, delegating and optimizing. Take your vacations, hire interns, and enjoy your life (not at the expense of the business or the family).

Oh, and one more VERY important point: Marry someone who knows your tendencies to be an entrepreneur (ie risk taker) and will support you through thick and thin (and when things get too thin have the sense to stop), The biggest problems always start when the partner does not support the rolling of the dice. Family must always come first. Always.

Why would it be a problem? You don't have to code through the night with your buddies every night. It is possible to start and run a successful business without giving over every waking moment to it - in fact, it's almost certainly better if you don't. And for when you have to, as long as your spouse is understanding there's no problem.

Not to hijack the thread but http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1620333 didn't start out as me coding through the night either, but it eventually did turn in to that and it caused me to break up with a very nice girl.

Start-ups are voracious when it comes to consuming your time and not everybody deals with that equally well.

That mostly depends on whether you still have a day job or not. When you do, doing a startup will eat all of your free time. You can only get so far with skipping sleep & overloading on stimulants before you will inevitably crash, so don't go that road.

My strong suggestion: do the startup before getting married, but while you live with your potential future spouse under marriage-like conditions.

My personal experience: I had a live-in gf (and possible future spouse), and I spent about a year in startup crunch mode on an academic research project (which I hoped to leverage into a future startup). It put a major strain on our relationship - she worked outside the home, I worked primarily at home, and she didn't get the concept of "physically at home but working and unavailable." We are no longer together, in part because of this.

Your SO may be incompatible with your startup - it's far better to discover things like this before getting married. You may choose the SO over the startup, but you should be aware you are making that choice.

Worst case scenario: an ex-wife who acted as a burden throughout the startup process walks away with 50% of your successful company.

(Note: a prenup won't help much - courts are in the habit of nullifying them if the judge doesn't like them. Witness the whole Elon Musk fiasco.)

I believe Elon Musk had a post-nuptial agreement

As others have pointed out this is more about the person you marry than the act of marriage. But realistically if they like to cuddle on the sofa and watch 10 episodes of Ugly Betty with you and you want to code, you'll probably work that out a long time before you go as far getting married.

What does make a massive difference is kids. And more precisely sleep deprivation, especially in the early stages. Coding until 2am, going to bed and 5 minutes later a little person is crying and you are up again etc is hard. Also when you are just a couple your SO might not mind you rolling out of bed at 10am, but most aren't going to be too happy about having to get up at 7am 7 mornings a week to look after the kids whilst you are snoring quietly. And even if you do get away with that, don't discount the amount of noise etc that at least stops you from getting a great sleep. Some people get lucky, some people think they "trained" their kids, but for most people the first few years are tired years.

And as they get older your unsociable hours don't really work either. Most kids operate from around 7 to 7/8. They wake up in the morning they want to jump on your bed. They want you to tuck them in. You'll love it too - but family life is hard to balance with the typical lifestyle the average hacker on here probably lives.

Please note it is not all bad, I work from home in an office in my garden and see my kids for hours every day - something most people don't get. You probably also have more flexibility to go to sports days, plays etc. But never underestimate the tiredness in those first few years!

I don't think being married would have too much of an effect on things, as long as your s.o. knows what he/she is in for and is committed to giving you the time you will need. I am married and we have a 2 year old, which does make things somewhat harder... but not impossible. This is the best article I ever read on the subject:

http://steveblank.com/2009/06/18/epitaph-for-an-entrepreneur...

It very much depends on your s.o. if it will work to your advantage, be a neutral thing or be a drag.

Some people really dig it, some people don't care and some will hate it, talk it over, communicate as much as you can about what is going on and make sure that if there are major decisions to be made that you're both on the same page.

Some people work together in the start-up, for some that's not an option. There are a thousand tiny things that matter, in the end doing this can place significant stress on your relationship, it may cause it to break, it may cause it to deepen.

There is no 'one size fits all' recipe here, you're going to have to feel your way, communication is the key.

Holy Crap, You and I are the same person. I am 28 and got married 12 months ago. My marriage is still strong even with all the odds against us: 1st year living together, 3 year old, my wife moved to a new city, started a new job, started two startups (1 already failed not because of the marriage). It all depends on the people, if your wife/girlfriend/finance thinks that the work you are doing is a waste of time then it will greatly impact your relationship BUT as in my case my wife is a staunch supporter of my ambition to make something great, she pushes me to work harder and SMARTER not wasting time on irrelevant stuff. She has no technical experience or knowledge and is not interested in it, she is only interested in seeing me succeed which makes her a great sounding board when i have difficulties.

I think the key in our relationship is that each night around 11 we stop whatever we are doing and just spend the rest of the night with each other, talking about our days what was good and bad then we watch some tv and relax. Another important thing for us is to eat dinner together, especially since we have a daughter instilling family values is the most important thing to do as parents.

I think if you put your family first, then your partner will support you in your startups because they know that when you have time you will spend it togeather.

It's a good question. There's a saying that behind all successful men is a good wife. But it depends entirely on your personal circumstances, and the demands of your wife/family.

A start-up can be HARD. And there's no guarantees, and often irregular cash flow. If you can handle this (ie have sufficient float to cover) then ok. If not, it could get stressful.

The one great thing about being married is it forces you to be "real". When you're in your early twenties, foot-loose and fancy-free, you can embark on just about any flight of fancy without too much in the way of repercussions. But conversely you are not being forced to think too critically (financially). When you're older, with responsibilities, you can't be dicking about. You _have_ to appraise what you're doing in the context of wider financial obligations. This can be a good thing: it might stop you taking stupid risks.

But, fundamentally, it comes down to this: does your wife support what you are doing? Is she prepared to accept a reduced income/life-style for a shot at the big time? Is she comfortable with the odds against this? Is she gonna be happy you spending all your time in front of a PC with often little to show for it? Only you can answer these questions.

Any married women founders or anyone whose wife is doing a startup ? Would be good to get tips from you.

I multitask fairly well but have always feared juggling married life with a startup. I am getting married this october. My fiancee is supportive, an engineer & workaholic himself and to an extent understands startup. I have known him for many years and he stood by me even before when I almost went bankrupt being part of a startup. I think his support and the possibility that I could discuss things from work (which I can't do with my parents/siblings) gives a good feeling.

Only concern is I feel he doesn't "yet" get the stress part and the variable low morale issue at times. It is very weird to him if I say that I am feeling low today and by evening if I am excited that we got 20 more hits on the site.

edit: emphasis

Just look at 37signals. They have families and free time and hobbies and all of those other things that startup people aren't supposed to have.

I wouldn't necessarily categorize them as a "start-up" before. They're a mature, growing, and very profitable business.

The long hours issue is not unique to startups. I've seen happy couples where one partner works long hours and the other does not, and when both work long hours. But obviously it depends on the couple and what they both want out of life and the relationship.

The issue that is more specific to startups that can arise is money. Bootstrapping a startup can involve lower or no pay for an extended period. Both partners need to be on board with that, since money is apparently one of the main things most couples argue about!

I'm one of the founders of http://AdGrok.com -- we're in the current YC batch. I just turned 40 (one week before demo day!), have a wife (we just celebrated our 16th anniversary), and two kids (8 and 10).

I'd look carefully at your situation. Through this whole experience, my wife has been amazingly supportive -- there were no hesitations on her part as to whether I should go for it or not. She's been just as important for me in keeping the AdGrok ball rolling forward as my co-founders have.

Make sure all parties involved know what they're going into. It's my fourth startup (the second I was a founder in), so she knew I was going to be "heads-down" for a decent duration, frequently coming home after she was asleep (or just sleeping at the office). Make sure she's expecting crazy-long work days. You don't want or need her surprised by anything in a month or two.

I've worked with hundreds of hackers through the years, and there's only one common regret voiced by the older of my hacker friends: it's the soul-tearing sadness of not spending enough time with your kids. Just try to keep that in the back of your mind -- you'll have to try to decide what "enough" means.

Good luck!

The cool things about starting a startup is that you make the rules. I know most people think they need to take the "work-12-hours-a-day-approach" when they start a startup, but that's not mandatory. Not sure who came up with that one.

When you're starting your startup, you should think about what kind of time, energy, etc you want to put into it. I really enjoy what I do, but I also realized working all the time gets in the way of other things I want to do (i.e. spending lots time with people). When I started my business, one of the rules was to work only in the morning, and because I had this mindset from the beginning, everything has worked out great. Sure, sometimes I'll work a little more, and sure, I really enjoy what I do, but if spending time with your wife/husband is really important to you, you can dictate that as long as you do it early.

I say it doesn't change your changes. Having seen my friends and colleagues grow up and settle down with people - it is apparent to me that people don't change. If you are motivated and serious about getting things done, you will continue to do that when married. If you prefer to veg out and watch TV after a hard day at work - that's what you're going to do when you settle down with your special someone. If you wake up one day and think you've changed and you want to turn off the tv and loose weight and be energetic and travel the world and do everything you always though of but never did... it'll probably pass after you get tired of working for it. Just speaking from the experiences I've had via people I know. I started my current company after I was married for 5 years with a bun in the oven.

Don't you think this is kind of a ridiculous question?

"How does a relationship affect my business?"

As much as you let it. Each relationship is different. Different people. You are basically asking "How well am I doing?".

I'm not married and a year older than you, but I've always been long term relationship man. I imagine that a healthy marriage or long term relationship would only benefit you if she's supportive. It's not much different than being a researcher or resident MD or fighter pilot or any other demanding job, except with a bigger upside.

Kids seem to change everybody's life and would align attitudes towards risk differently etc.

Well, many say that a start-up is like getting married. Therefore, it would be a lot like polygamy...?

This said, so many jobs for 23-28 year olds who are high-achieving driven people (but maybe not entrepreneurs) have similarly crushing hours, so, it's not like start-ups are such an unfair choice.

I don't know from experience, but I think #1 would be talking with your spouse and making sure at least there is a baseline understanding.

I've done numerous startups and marriages, and all I can really say is that if you love your idea and want it to work, you will find a way. Americans watch an average of 4 hours of tv per day, turn the tv off and spend the time sitting next to your wife while you work. We love listening to Pandora or iTunes and working on our respective businesses.

A startup taking over your life is a good problem to have especially if you are following your passion. My advice is to go ahead and start something with the Hong Kong guys and let us know when the married life and the start-up starts conflicting. We can give more specific advice on a case per case basis. You can do it -- Just get started.

Completely off topic but you mention that you will start something with people from Hong Kong. I'm looking for a merchant account with a payment gateway in Hong Kong but haven't had any luck... Do you or your partner know anything that could help me?

You can contact me at hn - squiggly sign - gom-jabbar.org Thanks

I don't remember where I read it but if fits your situation:

Startups are like roller-casters, it always requires your attention no matter in what stage you are. And you need a life!

This means that you have to balance personal life with startup.

Otherwise you have to be like Steve Jobs for whom business is a lifestyle.

There was a study that showed that a vast majority of (famous) mathematicians did most and best of their work before getting married. Not that it is indicative of how things are in 21st century, but still an interesting anecdote.

I'd be curious about what fraction of them did that work before they got tenure.

Also "famous mathematician" is a bit of an oxymoron. All fame is local, and fame in mathematics even more so.

depends on who you are married to. from my own observations, this is what i can gather: if the wife is supportive of what you're doing, then it can actually make the creation of a startup easier. if she is not and always demands your time at the expense of necessary business tasks, then it's going to be a lot harder than if you were single.

Most of the posts written so far seem to be along the lines of "Startups, marriage and children can all be made to work together." Patio11 makes a good point about the truism 'Startups take over your life' being a somewhat artificial construction.

I will play contrarian and argue the opposite side of it.

No matter how well some people manage to integrate their work life with their family life, they would still be more free to compete if they had no family.

Maybe you have created enterprise software and a large company in Texas, USA, calls you and asks to come pitch to the CEO tomorrow. How free are you to get out of any personal obligations so you can be there in Texas tomorrow?

Maybe you are selling support for open source software, are you free to work 80 hours a week for the first 2 years, just to get things going?

Maybe you are focused on electronics in Asia and you are trying to learn about the various laws and electrical infrastructure requirements in each country. It would also be nice to know something about the culture of these countries, their customs and history - each week, do you put an extra 5 hours toward learning background information about these countries, or do you put that extra 5 hours toward your personal relationship?

My overall feeling is that you can start a personal relationship at any point between the age of 14 and 84, but the first 2 years you are trying to get a startup off the ground is unique, and I think during those 2 years, much of the rest of your life should be put on hold.

If you end up competing against my startup, and I'm putting in 10% more than time than you, then you better be 10% smarter than me to balance things out. In my case, that is not very difficult, I am fairly stupid so you might well be 10% smarter than me, but you might eventually face competition that is, in fact, smarter than you, and willing to put in a lot more time than you. What then?

At the risk of sounding like some kind of Zen guru, I do think you need to ask yourself what you truly want. While we are all subject to random chance, there is a large extent to which we can control our lives, and to that extent you will create the life that you strive for. What you think you want may be different from what you actually want, and you'd do well to think carefully about any discrepancy between your stated goals and your actual actions.

Possibly one way to figure out what you would be comfortable with would be to think about losing. If you end up competing in a particular niche, against someone just as smart as you, and your competitor wins because they work 100 hours a week, whereas you decide that your personal relationship, and mental health, are important, so you only work 40 hours a week, then will you be okay with losing? Will you go on to have a happy life, or will you look back later and have regrets? In the book The 7 Habits Of Highly Effective People the author Stephen Covey suggests "Begin with the end in mind." That's applicable here. Think about what outcomes you'd be comfortable with, and let that shape your actions.

Since I'm playing the contrarian here, I will try to end on a negative note: you will have more chance of success the less energy you invest in your relationship. You might be much happier if you focus on your relationship, but we are not talking about happiness here, only the success of your startup. Being able to devote 100% of your energy to your startup might only give you a very slight edge compared to other startup entrepreneurs, but every little bit of an edge helps.

I'm married to my co-founder. Neither of us work through the night. Recently we quit working weekends.

We spend too much time at our computers lately, but that's more out of laziness and lack of originality than anything else.

Occasionally, we yell at each other about work, but then I hear married people do that about other things, like laundry.

We have one SaaS out in the wild, another under development, 1 ebook, and various live and your-own-pace training courses. I quit consulting in January (except for an ongoing contract I had to fulfill) and he has kept doing the consulting, but is about to quit himself.

There's no such thing as a startup truth. Some people will tell you you'll work through the night and get sucked up; some people will tell you, no way. (Like me.)

The fact is, what type of business you choose to pursue, and the choices you make every day, will determine what your life's going to be like.

Me, I'm happy knowing that 12 mos from now, our first SaaS will be grossing $40-50k/mo and our second one probably $10-15k/mo. :)

Amy, Freckle is great! I really love the UI and the attention to details that you guys put in. I'm glad that you guys are doing amazing. You are amongst my heroes/inspiring list of people :)

Hey, thanks! :) Best of luck with Marrily, it looks quite nice. Go you for creating a product you can charge for!