YMMV I guess. I did a similar course and the religiousy aspects did put me off a bit (bowing and prostrations), but the leader did explain there was no worship involved and that the practices were to remind you of what you wanted to aspire to. He offered the techniques and said they worked for some people but not others, and to take what worked best for you. Maybe your videotaped guy was too pushy?
We did have to read some Buddhist verses every morning which was incredibly boring, but hey ho, it was a Buddhist retreat so I expected something along those lines. And anyway, it provided a chance to be aware of the resistance I have to organised religions.
> the recorded chanting they play while you meditate is hypnotic programming
I probably wouldn't put it like that, but if the chanting didn't induce some sort of effect it would be pointless to do anyway. "Programming" isn't it though.
> I tried to skip a session because I didn't get enough sleep and the management came and got me out of my room. That's when I knew it was time to leave.
I got tired with the 5am starts, but the discipline is something I find lacking on a normal weekend so overall I found the experience valuable.
> Many of the people there mentioned they go several times a year, with that glassy eyed obsessed stare. At least one person mentioned they had moved their home to be near the group.
Yeah, some people can get a bit over-excited - but the benefit of it being a silent retreat is you don't have to listen to them go on about it :-)
TBH if you found a decent teacher you'd probably form a different opinion. I think these retreats need to be taught very delicately to emphasise the practices while not pushing a dogma or religion on you.
Yeah. One of the smartest things I heard is from Huston Smith. Somebody asked him the relationship between religion and spirituality. He said, "Religion gives spirituality historical traction."
I'm pretty antireligious, so I get why bobsgame was creeped out by the historical-traction aspects of their practices. (People tried to force me to be Christian in my teens, so I've got a bucket of fuck-you ready whenever I feel the slightest religious pressure.) And if one doesn't feel safe, one should get up and go. But many people teach meditation in ways that are either low on religion or consciously eschew it.
I'd add that it is worth playing with some of the practices regardless. Chanting, for example. The mock religion "Church of the Subgenius" have redone the hare krishna chant to use the Three Stooges:
Larry Curly Larry Curly
Curly Curly Larry Larry
Larry Moe Larry Moe
Moe Moe Larry Larry
Meditative chanting like that (which, for clarity, I do at home, not in somebody else's temple) is a really interesting experience. It made me more open to occasionally joining in with other people's religious practices; knowing the experience I was less worried about getting sucked in.
so you are into buddhist "philosophy" and "certain techniques". But you consider yourself agnostic probably? Or atheist... And of course you don't see any contradiction here.
you know why the cults are out there? Because people who don't believe in God are ready to believe in anything. Wandering from yoga classes to self-improvement new-agey seminars and paying the top dollar for the privilege.
Picking and choosing from a technique here and a convenient piece of philosophy there doesn't sound like solid approach to spiritual life.
Treating your soul like cart in a convenience store where you just throw-in whatever looks good is plain naive, immature and wrong. Besides, Yoga, buddhism fashion and other New Agey fashions are so passe: they peaked in 80s/90s. Are there still people treating this seriously?
I'm sorry but this is the lowest form of spirituality I can imagine. You probably would be better off omitting this spiritual junk food of new age instead altogether.
Your concern about treating spirituality like a buffet is not without merit; Huston Smith, making that analogy, pointed out that some people faced with a buffet eat only fried food and deserts. Others, understanding nutrition, eat wisely.
Your leaping to assumptions about my approach based on a few short sentences makes you look like a loon with an axe to grind. Your refusal to sign your name doesn't help. Suffice it to say that whatever the flaws in my approach to navigating the world, taking spiritual advice from anonymous ranters is not one of them.
>> But you consider yourself agnostic probably? Or atheist... >And of course you don't see any contradiction here.
>Buddhism is nontheistic, so no contradiction...
Buddhist friend from Japan claims otherwise. Many Gods in Buddhism. Taking the religion and cutting out whatever not convenient so Westerners will still pay for the privilege. That's what they did to promote buddhism in US and make money on it. Still it is like puzzle with missing pieces then.
You know Jesuits (yep, these evil dudes) have their own ways to meditate, their own way look on things like economics (gold standard has been widely discussed among Jesuits since middle ages), etc. One could take whatever is convenient there too, say there is no God, and just end up with some kind of philosophy. My point is that it's not like in your own civilization you don't have some deep thoughts or ways to meditate, it is just that they aren't fashionable at the moment. Or maybe christians are too focused on Jesus Christ to notice all this stuff that was developed within this religion across centuries.
>> You probably would be better off omitting this spiritual junk food of new age instead altogether.
>In favour of what?
Something closer to our own civilization. I think I believe in God. I go to church very rarely though. I'm not deep believer. I hate all the bad things Catholic Church has been doing. Especially to children. But Im not obsessed with them too. I'm not a good Catholic at all. But for me changing this altogether to be more Eastern would be a mistake. You are still under influence of a religious thought. The difference is that it is foreign to the culture where you function daily. It's like changing big comfortable armchair for a wooden chair. Maybe you don't want to sit at home at all, but still better to have an armchair.
When I was a child (maybe 8 year old) I was slapped in face by a priest during mess. Others, friends saw it. It was because I wanted to leave the mess. Because I was feeling really bad/dizzy. The point to understand is that this priest is a really, really bad christian. He isn't God.
If you want to pick and choose. At least do it within your culture. Pick and choose values in your own culture that make sense to you.
Omit these bad Christians who hurt you. I'm sure there are bad buddhist monks who hurt their own too. See through that. Might be intellectually interesting.
Gold Standard and Jesuits: they figured out that fiat money always ends up with inflation (stealing the value of money by the King/Government). So they figured gold standard is good as it makes stealing money from people more difficult. Now, just imagine the parallel between this and for example what many modern economists say. They might not even know that a lot of libertarian economic thought had its roots in Jesuits "philosophy". Religion touches every aspect of our lives. Should FED be abolished? There were guys in habits thinking about it 500 years ago. Just saying it is cool to see these parallels within your culture. If I studied buddhism instead I wouldn't be able to see them. Not sure if bddhism has anything on money standards or economics.
But again, I write this, and will go to church rarely. Christianity is just important part of our culture. It is school of thought too. But instead of insulating you from the world (i.e. issues, economy, whatever), it is strongly embedded in it. It actually defined our culture whether we like it or not. For Jesus Christ we have Marxist priests. How they connect the two, I don't know, but shows you how deep some of these philosophies can be, even though we are not aware of them.
> Buddhist friend from Japan claims otherwise. Many Gods in Buddhism
> For Jesus Christ we have Marxist priests. How they connect the two, I don't know
> Not sure if bddhism has anything on money standards or economics.
For someone who knows next to nothing about either religion they're talking about, that sure was a long post.
Anyway, in case you want to learn anything about something "far from our civilization" (as if everyone on this site was in the western world...), there are many kinds of Buddhism, and many of them are atheistic (which makes sense, seeing as the Buddha himself denied the existence of any creator Gods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism )
This works both ways. Atheistic forms are there along deity ones. And still this or another way this makes you a Buddhist which IS a religion. Atheistic Buddhist is an oxymoron, I hope you understand at least this much
No, it is not. To be an athiest has nothing to do with religious inclination, it has to do with lack of belief in god(s). It's right there in the word: a-: lack of; -theist: one who believes in a deity. A Buddhist in the vein of the Buddha, who did not believe in god(s), is an atheist.
Most of the definitions I've found define religion as in terms like 'belief in a supernatural power', or 'worship of gods or similar higher powers'.
Buddhism is not involved with either. I see it really as little different to going to the gym. Do the correct practices consistently and see results. No magic, no worship, no blind beliefs, just steadily progressing and seeing results...
We did have to read some Buddhist verses every morning which was incredibly boring, but hey ho, it was a Buddhist retreat so I expected something along those lines. And anyway, it provided a chance to be aware of the resistance I have to organised religions.
> the recorded chanting they play while you meditate is hypnotic programming
I probably wouldn't put it like that, but if the chanting didn't induce some sort of effect it would be pointless to do anyway. "Programming" isn't it though.
> I tried to skip a session because I didn't get enough sleep and the management came and got me out of my room. That's when I knew it was time to leave.
I got tired with the 5am starts, but the discipline is something I find lacking on a normal weekend so overall I found the experience valuable.
> Many of the people there mentioned they go several times a year, with that glassy eyed obsessed stare. At least one person mentioned they had moved their home to be near the group.
Yeah, some people can get a bit over-excited - but the benefit of it being a silent retreat is you don't have to listen to them go on about it :-)
TBH if you found a decent teacher you'd probably form a different opinion. I think these retreats need to be taught very delicately to emphasise the practices while not pushing a dogma or religion on you.