> Online, it's 23 digits that you don't know, and then 3-23 more fields (shipping address, billing address, name, email, etc. etc.) That sucks.
Shipping address, name, and email are necessary even if you use bitcoin. Billing address is usually the same as shipping address. That leaves the CC number, in which case the equivalent is your bitcoin address. So there's no real win here. And if you're using a regular online shop, then they probably have all these details saved. With Amazon, I can buy things with one click. With Newegg and other stores that I use regularly, its two. I haven't seen any bitcoin experience that matches that. Reading up on "experiences" people have with Overstock and Tiger Direct, it all seems very roundabout and inconvenient. And then you're hit with shit like no refunds to top it off.
> Even at it's best in the Stripe Checkout model, it's less than ideal and extremely unsafe - it's so unsafe that American Express is RUNNING COMMERCIALS ADVERTISING HOW UNSAFE THEIR PROCESS IS!
Pull is less safe than push, yes. Bitcoin is undoubtedly more secure than giving your CC number. But pull is more convenient for consumers, as I outlined above.
There's work-arounds for credit cards, such as virtual card numbers, but they haven't gained broader consumer penetration for the exact reason that they're inconvenient. In practice, the "unsafe but you can get the charges reversed" system works well enough that promoting a new system based on the fact that its safer isn't really enough.
> For your convenience, let's 2.9% and $0.30 of every transaction. That's a huge drain on the margin for a business of any size, but especially someone with checkout size about 10-50 bucks and margins of 10-40%.
Not every business charges 2.9%. Many get rates as low as 1% (this is what we charged large corporations, if I remember correctly). With bitcoin, you're going to get hit with transaction fees, exchange fees, and exchange spread. For small shops, its likely that will come out less than the CC fees, but for bigger stores its questionable.
Edit: Note that I hope these problems will be solved. Ideally, we see the Bitcoin protocol and ecosystem mature such that it is as convenient as a credit card and safer to boot.
> Shipping address, name, and email are necessary even if you use bitcoin
Not for digital goods (maybe email)
> That leaves the CC number, in which case the equivalent is your bitcoin address
Most bitcoin payments are done either through mobile phone scanning a QR-code, or through uri's opening bitcoin software. I've never manually typed in a bitcoin address (worst case is copy pasting the payee address)
> I haven't seen any bitcoin experience that matches that. Reading up on "experiences" people have with Overstock and Tiger Direct, it all seems very roundabout and inconvenient.
Not sure what you've been reading, but my bitcoin purchasing experiences have all been extremely straightforward. Scan QR-code, press send, done.
> And then you're hit with shit like no refunds to top it off.
Uh...no you aren't. There's no chargebacks, not no refunds. That is, to get a refund the merchant has to agree. Basically, risk moves from merchant to customer (banks usually require the merchant to prove they delivered the goods in chargeback cases)
edit:
> With bitcoin, you're going to get hit with transaction fees, exchange fees, and exchange spread. For small shops, its likely that will come out less than the CC fees, but for bigger stores its questionable.
bitpay already offer 0% fees for a flat $30/month, and things can only get cheaper (as there get more/better exchanges and less volatility)
Yep, for one-time purchases of digital goods, Bitcoin is superior. For repeat purchases, like my Amazon Kindle purchases, you have to beat one-click.
> Most bitcoin payments are done either through mobile phone scanning a QR-code, or through uri's opening bitcoin software. I've never manually typed in a bitcoin address (worst case is copy pasting the payee address)
Ah yes, I forgot about this part. Although you can store your CC# in your auto-fill or password management software. And most stores will save it for you. The argument here is that is insecure, because you're storing your CC# and it can be stolen. But likewise, you're storing your Bitcoin private addresses on whatever device and they can be stolen as well. Except without any chance of recovery.
> Not sure what you've been reading, but my bitcoin purchasing experiences have all been extremely straightforward. Scan QR-code, press send, done.
Well I'm comparing getting an invoice, scanning a code, sending, waiting for confirmations with literally clicking a button to buy and then another button to tell Amazon where to ship my stuff. Or in some cases, just one button to buy and ship.
Then I accounted for the stories in which the invoice expired before enough confirmations, and apparently the order just evaporated despite the bitcoins being sent. And there's plenty of Coinbase horror stories from people trying to get refunds.
Broadening the use cases.. There's stuff like paying bills where I literally have to do nothing. Netflix, my electric company, Comcast, etc all just pull the funds necessary every month. I literally have to do nothing.
> Uh...no you aren't. There's no chargebacks, not no refunds. That is, to get a refund the merchant has to agree.
That was in reference to Overstock and Tiger Direct specifically. If I remember correctly, neither allow actual refunds of stuff bought with Bitcoin. They just give you store credit.
> Basically, risk moves from merchant to customer (banks usually require the merchant to prove they delivered the goods in chargeback cases)
That's a problem I have with it. Merchants are better equipped to manage risk than consumers, so pushing it back onto consumers is a bad thing.
> bitpay already offer 0% fees for a flat $30/month, and things can only get cheaper (as there get more/better exchanges and less volatility)
Didn't know that. I was going off of Coinbase's rates. Thanks for the correction.
For CC I get "charged" ~1.5% (pay extra, because prices are higher due to high CC usage), because I get ~1.5% back as a reward I'll definitely use. The exchange spread cost for Bitcoin could easily be > 1.5% and it would be extra work for me with every transaction to determine that cost.
> Shipping address, name, and email are necessary even if you use bitcoin. Billing address is usually the same as shipping address. That leaves the CC number, in which case the equivalent is your bitcoin address.
Maybe I'm confused. Why is the address, name and email necessary for BTC payments? Is it a stripe requirement?
And, as you probably know, a bitcoin address is WAY more secure than a CC#. They are nowhere near "equivalent"
> Maybe I'm confused. Why is the address, name and email necessary for BTC payments? Is it a stripe requirement?
Its necessary in that they need a place to send your stuff. Email is often used for accounts and confirmation. This would also be stored by whatever system you are using if you are a repeat customer: Amazon, Stripe, etc. My point is that its a wash and that they are not comparing like for like in an attempt to make credit cards more complicated than they are.
> And, as you probably know, a bitcoin address is WAY more secure than a CC#. They are nowhere near "equivalent"
If you read my post beyond the first few sentences, then yes, I know that and specifically discuss it. The context of the first paragraph is discussing whether credit cards are more difficult to use in terms of inputting information. The equivalence here is that there is some number that you have to input somewhere to make the payment. Thats it. There's no other inferences beyond that.
Shipping address, name, and email are necessary even if you use bitcoin. Billing address is usually the same as shipping address. That leaves the CC number, in which case the equivalent is your bitcoin address. So there's no real win here. And if you're using a regular online shop, then they probably have all these details saved. With Amazon, I can buy things with one click. With Newegg and other stores that I use regularly, its two. I haven't seen any bitcoin experience that matches that. Reading up on "experiences" people have with Overstock and Tiger Direct, it all seems very roundabout and inconvenient. And then you're hit with shit like no refunds to top it off.
> Even at it's best in the Stripe Checkout model, it's less than ideal and extremely unsafe - it's so unsafe that American Express is RUNNING COMMERCIALS ADVERTISING HOW UNSAFE THEIR PROCESS IS!
Pull is less safe than push, yes. Bitcoin is undoubtedly more secure than giving your CC number. But pull is more convenient for consumers, as I outlined above.
There's work-arounds for credit cards, such as virtual card numbers, but they haven't gained broader consumer penetration for the exact reason that they're inconvenient. In practice, the "unsafe but you can get the charges reversed" system works well enough that promoting a new system based on the fact that its safer isn't really enough.
> For your convenience, let's 2.9% and $0.30 of every transaction. That's a huge drain on the margin for a business of any size, but especially someone with checkout size about 10-50 bucks and margins of 10-40%.
Not every business charges 2.9%. Many get rates as low as 1% (this is what we charged large corporations, if I remember correctly). With bitcoin, you're going to get hit with transaction fees, exchange fees, and exchange spread. For small shops, its likely that will come out less than the CC fees, but for bigger stores its questionable.
Edit: Note that I hope these problems will be solved. Ideally, we see the Bitcoin protocol and ecosystem mature such that it is as convenient as a credit card and safer to boot.