I'm Michael and this was about me. This person never reached out for comment and is missing half the story. I'm happy to fill people in on the rest if this person or someone else wants to hear.
I agree with one or two of the characterizations but the majority I don't and there is a lot more to this story than it seems...
RE: INDUSTRY. Rithm School (their main competitor) shut down. Hack Reactor is down to single digit cohorts allegedly. Launch School is slowing down from 3 cohorts a year to 2. Numerous other bootcamps have shut down. Codesmith's decline is predominantly an industry problem.
RE: CODESMITH. For starters as an example, Codesmith's website, email, and entire AWS account was down for 3 weeks because they got locked out from not updating their credit card and then losing the root password and their 2-factor was a phone number. This is unacceptable.
Yet they market themselves as similar outcomes to elite grad schools and it's very reasonable to challenge them on their hyperbolic marketing.
Both sides of the story need to be heard before making a judgement.
If you really cared, this should have started with: "I am stepping down as the moderator..."
Even though you have counter claims, you moderating the forum for your industry is problematic. You also seem keen to chime in about a competitor when you should be impartial and allow users to discuss their experiences alone.
Yes there are two sides to every story, but in no universe should you be the mod of that subreddit.
Even if we accept all your claims at face value, your behaviour in your capacity as the moderator of that subreddit was still immoral. However you feel about it, being a moderator is a voluntary responsibility which comes with an expectation of impartiality and service at the expense of, not in furtherance of, your personal goals.
At best, if everything you say is true, what you are doing is akin to proudly volunteering as a firefighter so that you can slow-walk the response if a fire is ever reported at the NXIVM HQ. Your crusade against NXIVM may be righteous, and it might even be universally considered a net good if its HQ were to burn down, but it would still raise a lot of eyebrows if it came out that you intended to use your position in that fashion.
edit: To be clear, I sympathise with your claim that you are being subjected to a one-sided hit, and am starting to feel uneasy with the dogpiling atmosphere that is building in this subthread. However, it is understandable to me why this is happening - fundamentally, Reddit has become a town square that is really not engineered correctly to be one. In a town square, people want to choose their leaders, but subreddits are by design "storefronts", in which leaders (moderators) choose their people. This tension is resolved by a very unpleasant jerry-rigged substitute for democratic control: the one way you can "vote out" a moderator (who has the backing or indifference of everyone above him) is to apply psychological pressure, or other harm (such as the reputational damage your company is no doubt taking as we speak), until they crack and resign. This is sort of democratic because larger fractions of the "electorate" can achieve it more easily, but even turning up to such a "vote" that you ultimately lose entails social violence.
It doesn't seem like you are willing to resign, nor to put your moderator status up for a community vote (if that could even be made fair, after you presumably banned a lot of would-be voters, and conversely could accuse the other side of botting/brigading). What other options do those who do not want the town square to be moderated by you have?
To be clear I agree with a lot of what you wrote here so this is just a small nit:
> What other options do those who do not want the town square to be moderated by you have?
Start and visit a new subreddit. This is an important bit that gets covered up by metaphors like "landed gentry" and "peasants". Don't like it? Vote with your digital feet. It doesn't come with any of the baggage and complication that an equivalent real life move would have. Just stop going there and go somewhere else. Yes it would be nice if folks were awesome and tried to be awesome. The reality is they aren't and subreddits are property owned by the mods. Luckily, you don't have to be there.
>> I'm the co-founder of an interview prep mentorship platform [...] my company's services so there is a small amount of overlap on the most experienced end of Codesmith and the least experienced end of Formation. <<
> RE: CODESMITH. For starters as an example, Codesmith's website, email, and entire AWS account was down for 3 weeks because they got locked out from not updating their credit card and then losing the root password and their 2-factor was a phone number. This is unacceptable.
Everything I can find online, including your post on reddit about the outage, says the outage was for 4 days. Not 3 weeks.
I'll also note that your post on reddit about the outage was phrased as if you were a student impacted by the outage, going so far as to say it was your "final straw" even though you don't have skin in the game other than as a competitor.
do you think maybe they could have kept it up if they didn't layoff 80% of their staff because of your modding? reddit is essentially google results at this point, don't act coy.
Friend, take a look at how you're phrasing things. If we boil down your statement to just the facts we see:
* Industry wide layoffs are happening.
* This company had a layoff.
* This company did not tell their workers they were being laid off in advance.
But that's not how you phrased it. You dismissed concerns about your biases by saying there are industry wide layoffs, and then in the exact next sentence castigated codesmith for having a layoff. Those statements don't align, that everyone is having layoffs and it's no big deal, and codesmith is having layoffs and it's a big deal.
Futher you add charged language about no notice, which is perfectly standard, and an assertion you can't possibly know, about codesmith having "the most dedicated staff". That's just not something you have context to state and its only purpose is to inflame and paint the worst possible picture.
In the words of Ron Swanson: Son, people can see you
If their entire marketing strategy is Reddit. They deserve to die. They are failed company. If they were really good they would not need to astroturf reddit. Their students would be their best promoters and they would have line out of the door.
I would really like to hear both sides to the story. But from the data it seems like you have been obsessively commenting on the subreddit about codesmith for more than a full year. And almost 80% have been negative. This looks unhinged because you are a moderator of the subreddit. What's the other side to this?
But yeah two sides to every story and if this has been going on for years, "1000 posts", there's clearly more to the story, and it's irresponsible to not reach out for comment if you are going to try to summarize that.
Is that what you do all day? Its trivially easy to make a profile look like yours, its a lot harder to actually have an average of 28 commits a day every day for a year with zero days off. Not for weekends, not for vacations, not for sickness. All in completely private repositories
You showed me yours, I'll show you mine[0]. It’s all organic. A pretty significant part of that is open-source, or source-available, so it’s easy to verify. I think I may only have two or three private repos (but one of them is where I do a lot of work).
I’m retired, and work on code all day, most days. I’m just a wee bit obsessive, being “on the spectrum.” I average about 1,900 checkins per year. Some of the days that I do the most work, have 1 or zero checkins. I will sometimes shitcan a whole day’s worth of work, if I find myself in a rabbithole.
Here’s a fun GitHub tool[1].
I have no opinion on the article, or the responses, other than there’s a lot of ugly going on, and it isn’t really making my life any richer, reading it.
I could tell that all your code would be in private repo's before i even opened it. Zero open source contributions, and probably pushing comments so he can get a green every day.
Even if codesmith _was_ objectively bad, I am still wondering _why_ do you spend _so much time_ shittalking that company on every fucking occasion? Reddit, HN, LinkedIn. You are putting way too much energy into that, way more than the average person would objectively care. Makes me wonder.
a judge would def consider the extreme nature that’s occurred here. the number of posts is astounding, and the SEO damage could be monetarily accounted for.
A comment about them is still a post about them. This comment I'm writing, for example, is _also_ a post about what an unethical person you are and how your inability to understand or apologise for your behaviour says EVERYTHING we need to know about you.
Or would you say I didn't post what an unethical person you are, I only commented about it?
> Both sides of the story need to be heard before making a judgement.
Your side begins and ends at being a reddit moderator for an industry subreddit while working in said industry as a CTO. Anything you say or do in this position should rightfully be assumed to be biased.
Do they though? Being a reddit mod for a sub that covers an industry you have a vested interest in with no other mods with similar backgrounds really does sound like a well traffic'd and successful bully pulpit.
My company works with a lot of bootcamp grads later on in their careers so wouldn't I have an interest in promoting bootcamps so more people go and create more customers down the road?
I recommended a bunch of people go to Codesmith until February 2024, when the first signs of collapsed started.
> Numerous other bootcamps have shut down. Codesmith's decline is predominantly an industry problem.
In that case can you share the user stats for the sub? Because if coding boot camp as an industry is dying the growth of the sub should have also slowed down or plateaued, right?
Your post does not really do much to dispel the negative picture that the opening article paints of you. You say their decline is "predominantly an industry problem". Is this also the case for your own company, Formation? You went on the record comparing Codesmith to a sex cult and accusing it of deceiving and exploiting its students and evidently consider criticising them to be a mission worth years of near-daily dedication, and the only example you have to offer to justify this in a thread where people question your motives for this is... some random anecdote about them having an IT fuckup?
This doesn't read as if you have a coherent case that Codesmith is bad to an extent that justifies your single-minded effort to spread this message, but as either an attempt to throw more FUD at the wall in the hope that something sticks even in this forum, or an indication that you are not quite well.
I compared the statement 'do this because it changed my life and the life of many others' to the type of language used in cult documentaries on HBO. I stand by that opinion.
Codesmith is not a sex cult. I can't believe I'm writing that sentence.
There were any number of less pejorative comparisons you could have made if that was all you wanted to say. I regularly see grandiose claims of life-changing benefits on everything ranging from mildly pointless and overpriced meditation retreats down to Toastmasters, and yet you chose the one entity whose main claim to publicity were things that got its leader-guru sentenced to 120 years in a max security prison.
Because the person was making an argument to go to Codesmith that sounded like the reasons people sold low-confident individuals into joining cults.
These are the reasons I TOLD PEOPLE TO GO TO CODESMITH PRIOR TO 2024: if you were extremely ambitious, successful in your previous job, a good communicator, and had a natural affinity to coding.
It's fine to participate in the thread and present your version of events, but we need you to observe the guidelines, which ask us to avoid fulmination and using capitalisation for emphasis.
> I compared the statement 'do this because it changed my life and the life of many others' to the type of language used in cult documentaries on HBO. I stand by that opinion.
This is ludicrous ... it's also the type of language used by all sorts of people in all sorts of situations. Mentioning a cult is the least charitable thing that can be said.
No doubt the industry suffered due to a market downturn, but your continuous posts and attacks worsened the situation for that company. Based on your Reddit activity, it appears to have been driven by a personal vendetta. If they pursue a defamation case, the evidence could strongly work against you. The overwhelming proof he presented of your actions toward the company would be difficult to defend. I honestly can’t understand why anyone would risk their own reputation—and that of their family—for dishonest gain. Most people are civil in such cases, but not everyone is if they conclude that evil was done. Scary situation to be in.
Hi Michael. We overlapped significantly at Facebook and chatted a few times (I was on the source control team from 2012-2018ish, part of which was the migration to Mercurial). Correct me if I'm wrong, but you wrote some posts about how you wanted something like git rebase -i, right?
I know your heart is in the right place, and have a great deal of respect for you. I think being the most active moderator of a coding bootcamp subreddit while also running one is probably not the best use of your time, right? Even though I know you're being honest, just the appearance of a conflict of interest can be an issue. Why not find someone else to take over the reins, someone who isn't actively involved in the industry?
One thing is a critic based on verifiable facts. Another thing is defending yourself. A third one is coming up with bad things nobody can verify. Your post mixes these things
I haven't verified the numbers, but I'll take them as correct for now. I can understand wanting to make such an analysis if you had skin in the game, and cautioning people, if you were a student who was disappointed or similar.
However by your own admission you're a co founder of a "interview prep mentorship platform" (which you claim is not a bootcamp) - fine, I can admit they are slightly different - though this does feel like splitting hairs semantically.
What I don't understand is, how is your position as a mod on such a subreddit not a massive conflict of interest? You have no reason to dissuade people from another company unless it hurts your business (I'm guessing you or someone in your family didn't lose time or money on codesmith).
Ergo, if you can, please do tell me why your activity isn't financially motivated, and therefore tortious interference. I see no other reason for a person to obsessively track another company in detail (baring a few health conditions I wouldn't want to wish on anyone.)
What does anything there have to do with any of the questions people in this thread are asking you?
I don't see anything there that adds anything to the story except solidifying the picture of you as an obsessive stalker. It certainly doesn't help your case.
In case I overlooked some key detail, please point it out.
There are people coming forward with evidence on Michael Novati’s digital stalking. One previous instructor at code smith(who also worked at Microsoft at the time), said he was digitally stalked, Michael Novati found his employment history and kept calling him out publicly so he would get into trouble with Microsoft. All this despite the person having clearance from Microsoft to work as an instructor at codesmith.
With the twisted logic I see this guy using here, I would assume he doesn’t even see this as digital stalking. I guess that’s what being the “number 1 code commiter at Meta”(according to his linkedin) would do to you.
Hello. It's nice to be able to interact directly with the subject of the article, so thanks for coming on. It's a shame you're being downvoted, because it would definitely be interesting to hear your perspective. This can't be a pleasant experience for you.
I have a couple of questions for you. Firstly the article really didn't hold back about you in a way that you don't usually see. But he makes very specific and verifiable claims. The owner blames the market for 40% of their decline and you for another 40%. You have made over 400 negative comments about the company over the last couple of years. You run the subreddit as a bad faith mod, and you run a rival company so you have an interest in the decline of codesmith. Those are some of the accusations laid against you by the article.
I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about them. Obviously i don't expect you to say anything that might create legal issues for yourself. But you have opinions that youre not shy of expressing. The article was perhaps not wholly neutral so maybe you can clarify your side of the story. Do you have a specific problem with codesmith? why do you care so much about them? Is it because they are competitiors? Do you take such an active role on reddit in order to promote your own interests, outside of creating and maintaining a better community?
To be clear i'm a completely random guy with no skin in the game, just looking for answers.
[edit to reply: There is no plausible scenario that my life will depend on the answer. Literally the only reason i'm on here is for casual chit chat. Frankly, this might be life changing for some people, but i'm really not too invested in the story so i don't mind opening some dialogue in good faith from my end.]
This is a wonderfully mature and constructive comment.
I appreciate this is off-topic, but I really wanted to highlight/praise what you'd written. It came across to me as very "HN" and the guidelines appear to corroborate this...
> Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
Thanks for that. I've been through the guidelines a dozen times. Following them is really the best possible way to have genuinely interesting and constructive dialogue. My last account got banned so i've been trying to do better. It's amazing how much some good faith conversation can get you, i feel in the time i've been here it's helped me develop better patterns of thought and argument techniques, i would say the most important lesson i've learned is to debate in good faith as much as possible and being honest with yourself about what you know and don't know. Most of the users on this thread are just looking to shut michael down, and expressing their opinion that he's an awful person... It's really very tiresome and boring. I have enough confidence in people here that they can hear what he has to say and make their own judgement.
Yeah I'll I'm going to say for now is that if all your competitors (that I spoke positively about) are shutting down and shrinking and laying people off... there's more to the story. A sad story about an industry dying that should be told.
You keep saying that there’s more to the story but then won’t say what that ‘more’ is. If the article is truly not a truthful accounting of events, you have the opportunity here to set the record straight. That you are not doing that only reinforces everything the article is claiming.
“it’s a sad story” is such an “aw shucks”, condescending sorta bullshit thing to say. I’ve read your posts where you claimed to be bullied as a kid (which i’m obviously sorry for if true), but to then channel that into becoming the bully yourself? That’s 1000% on you, Michael.
I'm sorry, what does anything there have to do with any of the claims people in this thread are asking you to back up?
I don't see anything there that adds anything to the story except solidifying the picture of you as an obsessive stalker. It certainly doesn't help your case.
In case I overlooked some key detail, please point it out.
So the article shows clearly that your graduates do the same exact thing. Grads from Harvard do it. But that doesn’t mean Harvard is telling them to do it. Job seekers are gonna be job seekers. But for you to basically stalk these grads and collect data on them…when they’re not even YOUR grads?? bonkers man. you have no place being a mod. It’s everything broken about the fucking internet right now.
> It’s everything broken about the fucking internet right now.
This sums it up. The attitude and behaviours deemed by this man as acceptable are a highly problematic, and a contributor the cesspool that the internet has become.
This is a link to reply to a post that cannot be used by anyone who doesn't have an account. For anyone else browsing without being logged in (or using a client that can't parse the link), the post URL is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45524707
I've been trying to comment and post on reddit u/codingbootcamp and nothing goes through completely suppress by the mod.
My comments are removed and i can't even make a post. I'm following all guide lines and nothing goes through.
Here is something I posted.
I want to raise a concern about moderator conduct. I have evidence (screenshots and permalinks) that suggests a moderator may have accessed and referenced private information about former employees and their family members. That kind of behavior would be unethical and could violate subreddit policy on harassment/privacy.
Mods: please confirm whether these actions occurred and, if so, what steps you will take. I’m happy to provide the evidence via modmail.
Would posting to 20,000 people telling them that I was using multiple Slack aliases to 'steal students' from Codesmith's community - which was entirely and utterly false in every aspect of that statement - count under this definition?
If you believe that happened, your belief provides a motive for many of the actions that the linked article attributes to you. This makes the overall story easier for us readers to understand.
To that extent, it might be relevant. But you'd want to consult a lawyer about it.
Are you planning to write something up about it? It would be interesting to hear the other side that you’re hinting at.
It’s also not clear to me if the person who wrote this article was paid for it or if they’re somehow affiliated with someone involved. It says they’re a “Fractional VP of Content”. I’m curious if you know more.
I might. I have hordes of documents. It's a really sad situation and very sad that he characterized this this way without even talking to me whatsoever.
Funny enough, one of my attorneys taught me a lesson a long time ago around this. Simplified, she said "only and idiot claims to have lots of documents" to support their action. Sure, it's the easy/lazy way to try and intimidate people with the lowest amount of knowledge about how things work. But anyone with the slightest clue knows 1) talk is cheap, 2) you don't need a lot of docs, you just need the one that matters, and 3) if you claim to have documents, you'll eventually have to produce them, and if you can't, you look like an idiot.
Maybe put another way...don't let your mouth write checks your body can't cash.
> Simplified, she said "only and idiot claims to have lots of documents" to support their action.
As our lawyer told us: "It does not matter what is said, what matters is what your can proof in court".
That life lesson has helped out multiple times in life, against people who made grand claims, and threatening legal action. But they all vanished when we pointed out some of our evidence. Its funny how fast opposing council tell their clients to drop it when evidence shows up.
What is the expression, the louder the bark, the lesser the bite? People who have proof, do not need to bark around on social media platform. They simply sue and get big fat settlements.
I believe the phrase that applies here is "put up or shut up". If you have hordes of documents to draw on as primary sources, then it should be pretty simple (but perhaps time consuming) to write a rebuttal.
just gonna guess here. Were you “invited” because you had signed up with Codesmith under an alias and then received a standard event invite? because it doesn’t sound like anyone at Codesmith would be personally inviting you.
Yep, this man is just pure evil you can see that on his head. Everyone says the same lol he researched best thing to share this up with if someone catches him red hand
I agree with one or two of the characterizations but the majority I don't and there is a lot more to this story than it seems...
RE: INDUSTRY. Rithm School (their main competitor) shut down. Hack Reactor is down to single digit cohorts allegedly. Launch School is slowing down from 3 cohorts a year to 2. Numerous other bootcamps have shut down. Codesmith's decline is predominantly an industry problem.
RE: CODESMITH. For starters as an example, Codesmith's website, email, and entire AWS account was down for 3 weeks because they got locked out from not updating their credit card and then losing the root password and their 2-factor was a phone number. This is unacceptable.
Yet they market themselves as similar outcomes to elite grad schools and it's very reasonable to challenge them on their hyperbolic marketing.
Both sides of the story need to be heard before making a judgement.