I've sent it, and if our numbers don't agree, then I'm inclined to believe the more recent study with more various reliable sources. Tax revenue is a net positive for Americans. You can't repatriate what you pay in taxes. Tax revenue can be used to build affordable housing (egads) among a myriad of other public works.
> If you are an average person, mass immigration is a really shitty policy, doubly so when we no longer need the same level of new people to run factories.
This is not true at all. It's simply fact that immigrants are taking jobs that Americans otherwise _do not fill themselves_. Perhaps that's because of the below-minimum wage compensation, or perhaps it's because Americans are used to a certain amount of comfort. On top of this, as you note, we're below our replacement rate, and that rate is going to fall, just as it has over the years both here and in other developed economies. You seem to have a problem with the "wrong type" of people coming here, and that itself indicates to me that your problems with immigrants go beyond pure economics.
> How will unskilled immigrants create a boon for our economy? How will that help our population when housing prices are already so high and so many are out of work? How will it help our culture, objectively or subjectively?
Housing prices are irrelevant to immigration. The level of inflation we're seeing is not because of a population spike. It's a valid concern, though. Immigrants buy stuff when they're here and they pay taxes. They create businesses and generate economic value, regardless of whether they repatriate anything.
Re:culture - Let's say culture is art, food, and attitude. Would I rather have white people taco night (which admittedly I do love), or semi-authentic mexican taco night? When I lived in FL, I had easy access to so many amazing mexican, peruvian, brazilian, cuban, haitian, etc. etc. etc. restaurants. Artists from other countries create works with different perspectives that are unique and thought provoking -- inherently different because of where they were raised, and because their experience is inherently different than mine.
Immigrants are also extremely entrepreneurial and create small businesses that benefit their local communities. Restaurants, yard work, painters, contractors, etc. Not that those are the only types of businesses they create or can create, that's just offhandedly from personal experience.
Let's talk for a second about the "young men" problem -- rather, the lack thereof. These people are no different than you or I. Even the most disparate of cultures across this green earth have commonality between them. We are humans, we bleed the same, we value family/community, we value integrity, we value productivity. Can you imagine yourself as a young man in Mexico living under the threat of death, torture, kidnapping etc. because you refuse to play ball with the cartel? Or because a family member has slighted them in some way? Stood in the way? What if you had the exact same aptitude for learning and productivity as you do now? Can you not place yourself in the shoes of these young men? Why are/were you better than them? Because you were born on the right side of a line?
Why are we afraid of young men? Young men are a bulk of the workforce. Young men historically do some of the hardest, most dangerous jobs. What makes them different than you or I other than (presumably) the color of their skin? Their nation of origin? Jack squat. Dispel with this myth that young brown men are scary and present a threat to your "society" and "culture." Some sources:
> But anecdotal impression cannot substitute for scientific evidence. In fact, data from the census and other sources show that for every ethnic group, without exception, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are the least educated and the least acculturated.
If they're not committing crimes; if they're working for the good of themselves, their families, and their host nation, what the hell is the problem? I'll take this point seriously when we start having significant demographic issues because of too many men (like China, e.g.).
First generation immigrants will ALWAYS have the hardest time acclimating to the culture. I was lucky enough to have many friends with 1st generation immigrant parents. Some here legally, some not. They spoke our language, however broken, and their children were red white and blue Americans. What kind of culture shock exists between Mexico and the United States? Peru? El Salvador? Brazil? To pretend we're so different that they cannot assimilate is frankly xenophobic, and I cannot presently see it another way.
> You say "we're not hurting for space". I say I resent the idea that we should tear up more of our beautiful country for more people, or pack in ever closer like sardines in a can.
The last thing I support is the desecration of our federal lands and national parks (which is currently happening and is a crying shame). We do not need to build there to build housing. The American obsession with living on a large plot of land where you can hardly see the neighbors through the trees must end. We must be okay with apartments. Our cities must be planned better and our policies must change. Shelter is a human right, not a commodity to be bought and sold by the capitalist class.
On the point of automation, it's absurd to think "who will pick the strawberries" == a lack of automation. We will automate anything and everything as long as the gains outweigh the opportunity cost. Workers are the most expensive part of any operation, and we've automated swaths of farming already. See corn, wheat, etc. In the future, perhaps strawberry picking will be automated, but the reason it's not now is not because we let too many young men in to pick them.
Your arguments are not without reason, and I greatly respect any conservative (small 'c') who's willing to stand up to the stupidity and cruelty of the Trump admin. We're in total agreement about political speech deportations.
Something you haven't addressed is the exorbitant cost (human and monetary) of deporting 11 million people. The Trump admin is completely okay deporting teenagers through cases of mistaken identity to El Salvadorian Gitmo. The cost will be staggering. These people are already here and we are thriving as a nation. What would it mean to naturalize these people? What would it mean to at least give them a path to citizenship that doesn't take 10 years and thousands of dollars? Cruelty seems to be the point. Xenophobia seems to be the reason. This is a purely political issue, and innocent people are being caught in the crossfire for no reason other than to score a few points, win some power, make some millions.
I'll close by saying we have huge problems with immigration. Our border is militarized and our processes incentivize illegal immigration. Border states do not receive enough funding or federal direction for how to handle immigrants, and are left with disgusting tactics like bussing to spread the pain. The true root is our policy, and if we were actually interested in solving the problems, we'd throw more money and resources at it, rather than pretending it's possible to deport 11 million people without engendering something akin to a holocaust.
I've sent it, and if our numbers don't agree, then I'm inclined to believe the more recent study with more various reliable sources. Tax revenue is a net positive for Americans. You can't repatriate what you pay in taxes. Tax revenue can be used to build affordable housing (egads) among a myriad of other public works.
> If you are an average person, mass immigration is a really shitty policy, doubly so when we no longer need the same level of new people to run factories.
This is not true at all. It's simply fact that immigrants are taking jobs that Americans otherwise _do not fill themselves_. Perhaps that's because of the below-minimum wage compensation, or perhaps it's because Americans are used to a certain amount of comfort. On top of this, as you note, we're below our replacement rate, and that rate is going to fall, just as it has over the years both here and in other developed economies. You seem to have a problem with the "wrong type" of people coming here, and that itself indicates to me that your problems with immigrants go beyond pure economics.
> How will unskilled immigrants create a boon for our economy? How will that help our population when housing prices are already so high and so many are out of work? How will it help our culture, objectively or subjectively?
Housing prices are irrelevant to immigration. The level of inflation we're seeing is not because of a population spike. It's a valid concern, though. Immigrants buy stuff when they're here and they pay taxes. They create businesses and generate economic value, regardless of whether they repatriate anything.
Re:culture - Let's say culture is art, food, and attitude. Would I rather have white people taco night (which admittedly I do love), or semi-authentic mexican taco night? When I lived in FL, I had easy access to so many amazing mexican, peruvian, brazilian, cuban, haitian, etc. etc. etc. restaurants. Artists from other countries create works with different perspectives that are unique and thought provoking -- inherently different because of where they were raised, and because their experience is inherently different than mine.
Immigrants are also extremely entrepreneurial and create small businesses that benefit their local communities. Restaurants, yard work, painters, contractors, etc. Not that those are the only types of businesses they create or can create, that's just offhandedly from personal experience.
Let's talk for a second about the "young men" problem -- rather, the lack thereof. These people are no different than you or I. Even the most disparate of cultures across this green earth have commonality between them. We are humans, we bleed the same, we value family/community, we value integrity, we value productivity. Can you imagine yourself as a young man in Mexico living under the threat of death, torture, kidnapping etc. because you refuse to play ball with the cartel? Or because a family member has slighted them in some way? Stood in the way? What if you had the exact same aptitude for learning and productivity as you do now? Can you not place yourself in the shoes of these young men? Why are/were you better than them? Because you were born on the right side of a line?
Why are we afraid of young men? Young men are a bulk of the workforce. Young men historically do some of the hardest, most dangerous jobs. What makes them different than you or I other than (presumably) the color of their skin? Their nation of origin? Jack squat. Dispel with this myth that young brown men are scary and present a threat to your "society" and "culture." Some sources:
https://blog.policy.manchester.ac.uk/posts/2016/03/busting-t...
https://items.ssrc.org/border-battles/the-myth-of-immigrant-...
> But anecdotal impression cannot substitute for scientific evidence. In fact, data from the census and other sources show that for every ethnic group, without exception, incarceration rates among young men are lowest for immigrants, even those who are the least educated and the least acculturated.
If they're not committing crimes; if they're working for the good of themselves, their families, and their host nation, what the hell is the problem? I'll take this point seriously when we start having significant demographic issues because of too many men (like China, e.g.).
First generation immigrants will ALWAYS have the hardest time acclimating to the culture. I was lucky enough to have many friends with 1st generation immigrant parents. Some here legally, some not. They spoke our language, however broken, and their children were red white and blue Americans. What kind of culture shock exists between Mexico and the United States? Peru? El Salvador? Brazil? To pretend we're so different that they cannot assimilate is frankly xenophobic, and I cannot presently see it another way.
> You say "we're not hurting for space". I say I resent the idea that we should tear up more of our beautiful country for more people, or pack in ever closer like sardines in a can.
The last thing I support is the desecration of our federal lands and national parks (which is currently happening and is a crying shame). We do not need to build there to build housing. The American obsession with living on a large plot of land where you can hardly see the neighbors through the trees must end. We must be okay with apartments. Our cities must be planned better and our policies must change. Shelter is a human right, not a commodity to be bought and sold by the capitalist class.
On the point of automation, it's absurd to think "who will pick the strawberries" == a lack of automation. We will automate anything and everything as long as the gains outweigh the opportunity cost. Workers are the most expensive part of any operation, and we've automated swaths of farming already. See corn, wheat, etc. In the future, perhaps strawberry picking will be automated, but the reason it's not now is not because we let too many young men in to pick them.
Your arguments are not without reason, and I greatly respect any conservative (small 'c') who's willing to stand up to the stupidity and cruelty of the Trump admin. We're in total agreement about political speech deportations.
Something you haven't addressed is the exorbitant cost (human and monetary) of deporting 11 million people. The Trump admin is completely okay deporting teenagers through cases of mistaken identity to El Salvadorian Gitmo. The cost will be staggering. These people are already here and we are thriving as a nation. What would it mean to naturalize these people? What would it mean to at least give them a path to citizenship that doesn't take 10 years and thousands of dollars? Cruelty seems to be the point. Xenophobia seems to be the reason. This is a purely political issue, and innocent people are being caught in the crossfire for no reason other than to score a few points, win some power, make some millions.
I'll close by saying we have huge problems with immigration. Our border is militarized and our processes incentivize illegal immigration. Border states do not receive enough funding or federal direction for how to handle immigrants, and are left with disgusting tactics like bussing to spread the pain. The true root is our policy, and if we were actually interested in solving the problems, we'd throw more money and resources at it, rather than pretending it's possible to deport 11 million people without engendering something akin to a holocaust.