The discussion here follows well understood battle lines, but I want to add my grain of salt: working from the office comes bundled with commute. And the crux of arguments tends to be where you fall on the [commute is hell <-> working from home is hard due to circumstances] continuum. Some say that "commute helps clear the mind / switch context", but a simple walk does the same IMO; the mandatory presence in a vehicle along with everybody else at the same time, unpaid and very often for hours everyday feels incredibly invasive, wasteful and unjust. Every person then can talk price based on their circumstances, but that's the nub of it for me.
That's one of the more popular arguments but not the only one. When WFH, i have enormous freedom of arranging tasks they way I want them executed and it works marvels for my productivity. When I want to go out on my bike for 20 minutes, I do so, and excellent ideas come to my mind them.
There is simply no amount of money that would force me back to the office. I routinely pass on job offers where they demand "just two days a week in the office".
With WFH, I didn't have to listen to my coworkers' conversations in the adjoining cubes. Also, I could take a meeting with the cat on my lap (if she would cooperate).
Personally, I like seeing my coworkers in person. But the WFH advantages are real, too...
I doubt you can even get a hybrid position in this market if you clearly prefer remote work but can't find a remote job. Companies generally aren't going to hire somebody who clearly doesn't want to be there so the only people who have a choice are those who are capable of lying.
I suspect those "job offers" you're getting are probably just recruiters who'd waste your time if you told them you were interested then you'd never hear from them again. That's my experience with most of that "profession" anyway.
The "lying" I referred to would be pretending that you're actually interested in a non-remote job for anything other than the money you need to survive until you can find a remote job. Even if you don't come right out and say you see them as a "take it and keep looking", that's still going to be obvious unless you're at sociopath levels of skill in lying. And if you're somebody who wouldn't still be in the industry if remote work hadn't become the norm, you're not going to be genuinely interested in any non-remote job for anything other than money until you can get something better.
>Even if you don't come right out and say you see them as a "take it and keep looking", that's still going to be obvious unless you're at sociopath levels of skill in lying.
I see it as no different then when they ask "why do you want this job"? Except they aren't even asking.
Many people know the primary reason is finances, but companies tend to not pick someone who answers that way. There's an "etiquette" to lie about certain factors unless you're in crazy demand, so who's really in the ethical quandry here?
In my niche, the ratio of not remote (including hybrid) to remote is roughly 3:2. However, the interesting thing is that almost all top offers are remote only. Sometimes with the annotation "This is a remote position but you are welcome to the office should you wish to come".
> "commute helps clear the mind / switch context", but a simple walk does the same
Fully agree. In an ideal world, the commute would _be_ a walk to the office.
More realistically: for those who happen to live in an environment that allows them to commute by foot or by bicycle, working in the office is already much more appealing than for others.
As an European: yes and no, because that (mostly) means living in the heart of a big city and not everyone wants to do that (less living space, higher noise and air pollution)
I moved so I could walk to work and it has made such a huge difference on my quality of life, crazy how much different a 15 minute walk is compared to even a short drive. Not sure exactly why, but for me it's a world of difference
I’ve done a similar thing with the added benefit of also living in a walkable neighborhood (can walk to my doctors, theater, cafes, bars, gym, grocery store).
I really wish these neighborhoods weren’t so expensive because they are very desirable.
> In an ideal world, the commute would _be_ a walk to the office.
Geometry would like to have a chat...
Most people are living in some form of long term marriage/family relationship, and the other person/people also has a job to get to. Even if we ignore zoning, force everyone into high density apartments, force offices into high rises, and so on: there is only so much space within walking distance and so a populated city will have a lot of people who cannot walk to the best job for them. There are a lot of compromises possible, and we are used to them (I live in the midwest which means I can't take a job in New York city)
next best alternative is efficient public transportation. But when the bus stop is 15 minutes away, runs every hour, and still drops you off an hour from your workplace, you see why that becomes unviable.
And that was for my closest first job, some 15 miles away (so, a 15-20 minute car ride). It legitmately would take me 3 hours to get downtown, with multiple stops to walk to. And even less options to get back home after work.
As I do, I have a 15 minute bike ride, more like 25 minutes when it's my turn to drop the kids at school. Then I have a full desk full of light and nice colleagues with a great office culture.
I like to be able to disconnect from work outside my 9 to 5, which personally I am unable to achieve when I work from home. Kudos to those who can.
Well, I have a 60 minute train ride (if I'm lucky and there are no delays), a desk which is less well equipped than the one I have at home, and colleagues which are nice but with whom I don't actually work - the people I actually work with are in other offices, so I have to do video calls regardless where I'm working from. And so does everyone else, and most of them don't bother to go to a conference room or "phone box" to do it. I hope you can imagine how good that is for concentration and productivity...
> for those who happen to live in an environment that allows them to commute by foot or by bicycle, working in the office is already much more appealing than for others
I take the bus, but otherwise yeah, agreed. I hate WFH, so I choose to go in every day even though my company doesn't require any office time. I love my time on the bus, gives me a short walk to & from the bus stop, and 45 minutes each way to be offline and read books.
On the other hand, if I had to drive, I'd go insane. Driving for a commute is awful.
> [T]he mandatory presence in a vehicle along with everybody else at the same time, unpaid and very often for hours everyday feels incredibly invasive, wasteful and unjust.
All of this changes when you consider your commute on the clock.
I've been doing this since RTO 3-days a week and it really helps. I've already proven that I can work from home without issue, so heading into the office definitely isn't for my benefit - it's effort that I apply for the benefit of my employer, something they've even admitted by saying working from the office allows for "spontaneous collaboration and increased efficiency". As it's for their benefit (and also a detriment for me) then they can pay me for the time I spend doing it.
Given this attitude, the answer to your other comment:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40511726
"As a junior employee, I have no patience for your point.
Going into office is one thing juniors can do about the "problem with the culture" so my stance stays the same until the so-called culture changes.
In my experience, the number of seniors who complain sbout RTO and don't hoard knowledge is tiny."
... is that it is likely that nobody is hoarding knowledge, they're just avoiding you because you're unpleasant.
> Some say that "commute helps clear the mind / switch context", but a simple walk does the same IMO
No, it doesn't for everyone. Personal experience matters: after a 70-day lockdown including a very stressful work period (dedadlines etc), there's no way I'm going to WFH ever again.
But that's just me, of course. For others, priorities may be different.
Because it wasn't just the lockdown: it was a pretty complex affair at the job too (including very tense moments; it would've been bad even in the office, mind you) and there was no way to shut that away from me.
FTR, I did WFH in other times (2 years in the 2009-2011 period) and it wasn't like that.
The lack of distinction between your workspace and reduced socialisation still exists - not OP but personally I’m climbing the walls after a day of working from home.
I cope by have social outings and activities outside my home basically 7-nights-a-week. It works but I don’t consider it a positive I’ve that I’m more or less incapable of relaxing in my own home.
You got “verge of a breakdown” from that? Is it that disturbing to you that your preferred working arrangements don’t work for others?
Getting out into the outside world and seeing people prevents under-stimulation, and separating my work environment lets me switch off at home. Spending my every waking hour in my apartment doesn’t do it for me.
It’s not about “doing some work at home” - it’s about spending 5 days a week working in the same space I’m supposed to eat, relax, and sleep.
> It’s not about “doing some work at home” - it’s about spending 5 days a week working in the same space I’m supposed to eat, relax, and sleep.
Do you have good working habits? E.g. clean separation for working/non-working hours?
Do you have friends on Discord that you can engage with in activities post-work?
> It’s not about “doing some work at home” - it’s about spending 5 days a week working in the same space I’m supposed to eat, relax, and sleep.
It really is though. There shouldn't be much difference if at all between working 8 hours in a home office vs regular office + wasting 1-2 hours on commute. Commute helps some people separate work/leisure, but it shouldn't be a necessity or "drive you up a wall" like you said.
I read it as that being the point - they have a bad association for it so it's just not appealing now. Likewise you might have a terrible time in one office that puts you off working in any office.
Same. I can work from home if I have an errand or something, but for me the default is and will continue to be to be in office. And I will actively select work places were that is reasonable. and common.
the mandatory presence in a vehicle along with everybody else at the same time, unpaid and very often for hours everyday feels incredibly invasive, wasteful and unjust.
At least in the U.S. almost all of us in this industry are on salary. In that case I don’t think it makes sense to think of a mandatory commute as unpaid. It’s part of the deal and should be factored in accordingly.
That's true, but I've then also subtracted commute times from office hours when I was required to come in. I can't do 8 hours in office plus 1.5 commute time on those days.
I'd make it a solid 4.5 hours of bullshitting with people and using the amenities.
Get my gym time in, go for a walk around the building to be seen. Learn the names of the cleaning staff, ask people if they are "makin' copies", if they are let them know it is "very nice". Can't believe the sportsgame.
Soon enough you'll be promoted and you can use that promotion to go to a competitor and negotiate your previous role, but instead remote.
Not to mention air pollution and energy consumption of commuting. Office mandates run awkwardly against eco-friendly principles. Another aspect is nasty viruses are still a big concern. Offices with more breathing room / less people per square metre, spread less illness.
I actually rented separate space for that. So I pay for 50 m2 of private office space where I have two rooms, kitchen, bathroom, a desk with a comfortable chair, a bed, some simple gym equipment and other amenities. And in spite of paying for this every month, I would never ever come to the office where I could use some of these things (an old office chair) for free. It feels like some dark era has ended, at least for a certain type of employees.
I had a co-worker who rented a small office, close to his home. Because he lives far away from any larger towns he was able to rent an office for $200 per month, but he shares the space with his partner who also works from "home", so it's effectively $100 per person. Our employer paid for the office space, but not for the cleaning, because it was still cheaper than paying for him being at the office every day (we where short on space).
Depending on where you live, and your living situation renting a small office can be really cheap. In my local area I've seen private office rent for as little as $120 per month, but around $200 is more realistic.
Yes. Every type of employment puts undocumented costs at the employees.
But not all types of employment puts the same amount of costs. Those vary widely. And the possibility for the employee to optimize them also varies.
And all the comments up to now are still ignoring the elephant on the room and didn't touch the opportunity cost of having your entire family work on the same geographic area, and the insane housing costs on the few small areas where a family can do that.
I'm very happy for him, really! Also, I enjoy it when I pop into the office one a few weeks, it's an enjoyable experience - and part of this joy comes from the fact that I know I'm not forced to come there every way but it's my own choice.
I spent most of the pandemic working from my dining room table. Now when I work from home it is from table in the basement. Neither is particularly in anybody's way.
So that's your personal experience, but you can imagine that this might be different for different people.
The point is that previously you had a choice over the amount of space you need at home, there are requirements for WFH. i.e. You need a place where you can work effectively.
