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My point is: 'authentic humans' are in short supply, we have the real ones instead and that's what we should deal with. How theoretically authentic humans behave in books of SF authors isn't going to make a huge difference if in the real world such role models are few and far between especially if we count on their numbers to make up the difference between their individual powers and those wielded by your average ruler.

That's why you can keep a society of millions under control with only a few tens of thousands of dedicated assholes.



authentic humans, as defined here, are real, they're just few and far between.


Show me a single one then.



So, by giving that example you show that you have not understood anything of the discussion so far.

Let me spell it out: that's the defining moment of Tank Man's life, you have zero clue about what happened prior to that moment. And that's because really nobody seems to have a clue about who he really was, what his life was like up to that moment and so on. It's a singular act of bravery and one that I very much feel moved by. But I have zero illusion that Tank Man's life was nothing but an endless succession of moments like these where at every opportunity he did the right thing. And that's perfectly normal, doesn't make him any less, in fact it makes him more: because ordinary people making an actually stand when it matters is very powerful, no matter what their lives were like up to that point.


Let's be charitable and steelman your parent comment, and Tank Man too (quite literally).

Character is important.

As you say we don't know much about Tank Man. It was probably more than the defining moment of his life, it was the last day of it.

Isn't it fair to assume that whatever led up to that moment was a life lived in good character? He may not have lived as an exemplar of "authenticity", and if it was only a moment in an otherwise selfish and wasted life, like those "city businessmen" who spontaneously jump onto a subway track to save a child, we agree it doesn't that subtract from the authenticity of the act?

As we say around here "carefully pick your hill to die on". But there's more to the picking than a rash decision in a single moment. There's everything that built that character too, no?


Yes, which is more or less the whole point of this argument: nobody's perfect, but people can be 'on average' good; but that's not the same as equating them with saints, it just isn't realistic (and even the saints aren't saints in terms of absolute, they are just declared to be so, by people who themselves too are very much flawed).

So let's not resort to theoretical absolutes. I don't know where 'here' is but every culture has similar idioms but at the same time every culture has something about being careful about meeting your heroes.


How exactly are you defining "authentic human"? It sounds like you're defining it as someone who always does the right thing without exception, who of course doesn't exist, QED.

What point are you trying to make, actually? Your argument seems to be that "authentic humans," however that's defined, are not just rare but nonexistent, even if other quietly heroic people who fill the same role do exist. I'm not sure what end you're trying to reach here.


The key sentence in TFA is "In essence, they cannot be compelled to be what they are not.". That's a highly theoretical argument and I simply differ of opinion. In essence everybody can be compelled to be what they are not, all it takes is the right circumstances and your Saint will be a sinner and the other way around.

I'm far more interested in the interplay between people and their circumstances than I am in labeling a particular human as authentic or not, it smacks of a value judgment in a vacuum, whereas IRL there is no such thing.


You're interpreting the comment in an absolute fashion then turn around and claim to be interested in grey.


I gave an example of someone who stood up despite the consequences and did so in anonymity.

Your problem is that you stated such people don't exist despite the vast historical evidence to the contrary. Hitler's own officers wanted to kill him. Think about Harriet Tubman, or the underground railway. ad nauseum.




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