An argument that if some testing is good then test-driving everything must be better, or that if code review is good then full-time review via pair programming must be better, has no basis in logic.
That's not the argument at all. That is, as I just said, the reason they decided to try that. Their reasons for continuing to do it and further to recommend it are entirely different.
[...] better have rock solid empirical data [...]
You do realize that almost everything that goes on in the industry is not based on rock-solid empirical evidence, right? And also, that you're privileging an arbitrary historical accident by saying that new thing X has to have evidence when the common practice doesn't?
If you came into an environment like that, and only "professional" thing to do was to [...] make up a few test cases as you went along and trust that your code was OK [...]
That is not something I have ever heard any Object Mentor person say, and it's not something I said. It's so far from what I've ever heard somebody like Bob Martin or Kent Beck say that your misunderstanding is so dramatic that I have a hard time believing it's not willful.
I prefer to keep debates that start on a public forum out in the open.
Well, I'm not trying to have a debate. If you'd like to have one, you'll have to do it without me.
Their reasons for continuing to do it and further to recommend it are entirely different.
So you keep saying. The problem is, almost everything Object Mentor advocate does seem to be based on some combination of their personal experience and pure faith. I object to someone telling me that my colleagues and I are "unprofessional" because we happen to believe differently, particularly when we do have measurable data that shows our performance is significantly better than the industry average.
You do realize that almost everything that goes on in the industry is not based on rock-solid empirical evidence, right?
That may be so, but most people in the industry aren't telling me how to do my job, and insulting me for not believing the same things they do.
That is not something I have ever heard any Object Mentor person say, and it's not something I said.
Good for you. XP consultants have been making essentially that argument, in public, for many years. TDD without any planning ahead is inherently a trial-and-error approach, which fails spectacularly in the absence of understanding as Jeffries so wonderfully demonstrated. Plenty of consultants -- including some of those from Object Mentor -- have given various arbitrary amounts of time they think you should spend on forward planning before you dive into TDD and writing real code, and often those periods have been as short as half an hour. You may choose not to believe that if you wish. I'm not sure even they really believe it any more, as they've backpeddled and weasel-worded and retconned that whole issue repeatedly in their recent work. But I've read the articles and watched the videos and sat in the conference presentations and heard them make an argument with literally no more substance than what I wrote there.
You keep saying that I'm misunderstanding or cherry-picking evidence. Perhaps that is so and I really am missing something important in this whole discussion. However, as far as I can see, throughout this entire thread you haven't actually provided a single counterexample or alternative interpretation of the advice that consultants like those at Object Mentor routinely and publicly give. You're just saying I'm wrong, because, and there's not really anything I can say to answer that.
That's because you're trying to have a debate with the Object Mentor guys rather than a discussion with me. Your problem with them isn't my problem, and neither are your misunderstandings. It is not my job to argue you into a better understanding of something you clearly can't stand.
That's not the argument at all. That is, as I just said, the reason they decided to try that. Their reasons for continuing to do it and further to recommend it are entirely different.
[...] better have rock solid empirical data [...]
You do realize that almost everything that goes on in the industry is not based on rock-solid empirical evidence, right? And also, that you're privileging an arbitrary historical accident by saying that new thing X has to have evidence when the common practice doesn't?
If you came into an environment like that, and only "professional" thing to do was to [...] make up a few test cases as you went along and trust that your code was OK [...]
That is not something I have ever heard any Object Mentor person say, and it's not something I said. It's so far from what I've ever heard somebody like Bob Martin or Kent Beck say that your misunderstanding is so dramatic that I have a hard time believing it's not willful.
I prefer to keep debates that start on a public forum out in the open.
Well, I'm not trying to have a debate. If you'd like to have one, you'll have to do it without me.