Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin
Negative Mass (students.tools)
97 points by thunderbong on April 22, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 67 comments


This is a nice exposition, but it would have been more clear if they laid out the difference between inertial and gravitational masses. So far, these two varieties of mass are equivalent in all our observations, but they need not be so. Negative inertial mass is pretty weird, as the examples illustrate; but negative gravitational mass (i.e., normal and negative mass repel according to inverse square law) would be something exciting to observe.

See, e.g., https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/8616


Gravitational interaction of two small balls would be hard to show.

A ball that flies upwards has been shown (as a balloon). A kind of stable replacement of orbital motion, if it exists, would be cool to see!


"Let's weigh nikocado and some balloons"

Who gave this absolute savage a website, I nearly choked on my coffee.


> Negative mass is attracted to positive mass but it pushes it away when it gets closer.

Uh, what?


I believe that is believed to be true at least in some theories, don't remember which, but basically one mass ends up running away from the other.


The best explanation is that this post is two days late.


So all you would need is a little negative mass to create endless energy? How does this not break the laws of conservation?


Show me something with negative mass and I'll tell you


I know you are joking but isn't the idea that negative mass works with current models of physics?


"Works" in what sense? Nobody is stopping you from plugging negative values everywhere, but the laws were formulated with sctrictly >=0 mass in mind.

What would need to happen for you to claim that negative mass "doesn't work"? Some infinities somewhere? A division by zero in some place?


Isn't "create endless energy" just "some infinities somewhere"?


I think that says more about the model than the world it's based on.


Endless negative energy


Nice. But I when I clicked the link I thought it was going to be a bunch of jokes about Boston.


I didn't have the patience to weight for the punchline


Related ActionLab short:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvihUBO7rGo

Cosmological model with negative masses:

- https://januscosmologicalmodel.com/negativemass

Simulation:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJgzH99t9w8

Based on Souriau symplectic geometry (where inverting energy is equivalent to inverting the arrow of time):

- http://www.jmsouriau.com/Grammaire_de_la_nature.htm


Just realized. It takes infinite amount of energy to accelerate something with mass to the speed of light.

Which is why only photons can travel at the speed of light, since they have zero mass.

But going with that idea, wouldn’t that mean that something with negative mass can then go faster than the speed of light?

Would that explain why we can never observe something with negative mass? Because it’s going faster than the speed of light?

This is exactly the kind of mind games why I loved cosmology so much in college.


> wouldn’t that mean that something with negative mass can then go faster than the speed of light?

No. You can construct a theory of tachyons (particles that go faster than light) using special relativity, but they have imaginary masses!

The key is that the quantity that actually appears in the equations you refer to in special relativity is the mass squared. So ordinary objects have positive mass squared, light has zero mass squared, and tachyons have negative mass squared.

(Note that this means that some of the things that the article under discussion here says about "negative mass" are only valid in Newtonian mechanics, not in relativity.)


So in your example with tachyons, the negative number squared becomes positive?

Thanks for that explanation!


> So in your example with tachyons, the negative number squared becomes positive?

No. The negative mass squared means the mass itself, the square root of the mass squared, is imaginary.


All negative mass that exists probably moved away in the opposite direction of the expansion of the universe. It’s out there, but we’ll never reach it.


i thought this was made by friends of jean-pierre petit and his Janus model...

I love the idea of negative mass ( because i love symetries in the laws of nature) but i've got a hard time believing the geniuses of the early 20th century haven't already explored the idea.


It's interesting because negative mass is a prerequisite for superluminal travel via Alcubierre warp drives. What these examples show is that negative mass is an incredibly counterintuitive concept, probably impossible in the real world.


Or we drop the Higgs field to a lower state trying to create it, wiping out the entire visible universe at the speed of light and replacing it with something new.


> wiping out the entire visible universe at the speed of light and replacing it with something new

... and wonderful?


Impossible to say whether it would be wonderful, because it would change the physics of the universe in ways that we cannot predict.

Here's a good video on it, comfortingly entitled "The Most Efficient Way to Destroy the Universe": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijFm6DxNVyI


You wouldn’t know because you would turn to goo.


Less than that, if I understand right. Perhaps quantum foam.


Temporarily, then you’d explode or merge together into new kinds of matter. Some of your molecules would rearrange based on the new physics.

The good news is you probably won’t see it coming because nerves are slower than the speed of light. Hard to say if you’d experience anything after.


First example is wrong. Both would shoot off at infinite speed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision


Would negative mass make time contraction and length dilation possible?


The thing I can't get is how it falls in gravity (rate of acceleration in a gravity field is mass independent), but pulls a spring upward.


I don't know about the friction part. Seems like friction is modeled as a force that is dependent on mass but I don't think that's what's actually occurring.


They're literally just plugging in negative numbers for freshman physics equations. I wouldn't think too deeply about it..


It's wrong anyway. The friction force would be the opposite direction, but then the acceleration due to a force on the negative mass would flip direction again. So it would slow down like a positive mass.


Inside a crystal, electrons act weirdly like an electron that travels with a "perturbation" around it, so the mass for calculations is not the mass of an electron traveling in vacuum. It's call "effective mass" m* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_mass_(solid-state_ph...

The weird part is that it can be negative, so we already know quasi-particles with negative mass.

This quasi particle with negative mass and negative charge is a fermion so it's mathematically equivalent to a quasi particle with positive mass and positive charge. We call them "holes" and people that work with semiconductors think about "holes" instead of weird particles with negative mass.

Anyway, inside semiconductors they slow down and follow the conservation of energy law, they don't get faster and faster like in the simulation. The weird behavior of the simulation is not realistic.


Or just realize that the formula for stopping distance due to friction is independent of mass.


Also the last one: "Negative mass is attracted to positive mass". How? With gravity 2 positive masses attract to each other. I don't know what happens if 1 mass is negative , but to me it's not obvious that they still attract.

And I don't see how this relates to the previous examples. In my mind, impact and friction has nothing to do with gravity.


Alright. We are supposing for the moment that both inertial and gravitational contexts for mass give the same number.

The force between two masses, F is equal to G multiplied m-sub-1 multiplied by m-sub-2, and then all of that divided by the square of the distance between m-sub-1 and m-sub-2. Here G is the gravitational constant and the number being positive indicates a force toward, say, the first partner, m-sub-1.

Now, imagine m-sub-2 is negative mass.

Our force then becomes negative, so a force away from the first partner, m-sub-1.

BUT ...

Acceleration is equal to force divided by mass. Here the mass, m-sub-2 is negative, but so is the force. And so the acceleration is back to being positive and the negative mass "falls toward" the positive mass of m-sub-1.

In other words, positive matter ends up being a "falling toward" field.

Negative matter, however, well, run the numbers, only do everything from the m-sub-2 vantage point. The positive mass, m-sub-1, flees! Even as it attracts the other one.

And so once you have a negative/positive pair, they lock on, one fleeing, one chasing. One ends up with ever increasing positive kinetic energy, the other with ever increasing negative kinetic energy (all starts to sound a little silly here) and they cancel out, from a distance.

Gets wacky once you start imagining this for charged particles, which immediately bunch up into staggering Coulombs of negatively-charged nega-mass particles, and ditto for the positively-charged nega-mass particles. They just rapidly self-sort into these clumps due to the "electrostatic repulsion" going up against negative inertia. The EM force quickly dominates.

These two blazing opposite poles of charge, Q-pos and Q-neg, should naturally attract one another, but for that pesky negative inertia again.

And so all of the negative mass in the universe sorts into Q-pos and Q-neg, then promptly tries to approach the speed of light fleeing from one another, leaving just the slightest of electrical fields evident, but always asymptotically approaching zero as they more or less banish themselves to the further regions of normal matter.

(Some normal matter would be torn along for the ride)

It's a fun thought experiment.


I feel like the first example plus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_spaceship_paradox reveals a need for something beyond Newtonian gravity.


> don't know what happens if 1 mass is negative , but to me it's not obvious that they still attract

The physics of negative mass/energy are paradoxical to the point that they mathematically enable transluminal transport.


But are they more paradoxical than relativity itself?


> are they more paradoxical than relativity itself

I think so. For most purposes, we can build intuition for special relativity without having to do the math. (General is more fucked.) We don’t understand negative energy/mass enough to even do that.


Yeah I've never looked at collisions. But if you blindly plug a negative mass into newtonian gravity F=GM1M2/r*2. And then use F=ma or a=F/m you get a=GM/r*2 where M is the other mass, and a is our acceleration toward that mass. Positive masses attract everything where negative masses repel everything. One of each held at constant separation should accelerate together.

This is why I want to know if antimatter falls up. Or I guess it might fall down but repel regular matter in which case it'll be very hard to detect.


"the BASE collaboration has shown, within strict boundaries, that antimatter does in fact respond to gravity in the same way as matter"

https://www.riken.jp/en/news_pubs/research_news/pr/2022/2022...


That’s negative charge though, not negative mass. We haven’t been able to experiment with negative mass. No particle physics experiment has produced any evidence it exists.


No, that doesn't cover the correct situation WRT gravity.


Antimatter just has the opposite electrical charge. It doesn't do anything weird at all with gravity.


IIRC, we don't actually know that for sure yet. I've seen some proposals for for experiments that use the relative stability and neutral charge of the exotic atoms muonium and anti-muonium to validate that anti muons don't have negative mass as well as flipped charge.


Since it focuses on electrical charge, would it be worth renaming it to Anti-charged-matter

Are there other types of Antimatter that focus on different properties?


Antimatter also has anti-color-charge. Quarks have a ‘color charge’ (unrelated to visible colors) which is ‘red’, ‘green’, or ‘blue’. An antiquark is antired, antigreen, or antiblue (and has the opposite electrical charge from its corresponding normal quark).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_charge


Could anti-quarks behavior be explained by them having negative mass instead?


That would require a re-formulation of conservation of color charge. You could probably come up with an alternative formulation where everything is consistent, but all of the formulas would almost certainly be more complicated. The most obvious way would end up replacing color by the sign of mass times color everywhere, but then you've just renamed ant-red, anti-blue, and anti-green, with no obvious benefit.


I don't believe so; color charge isn't a scalar like mass is.


>> Antimatter just has the opposite electrical charge.

We don't know that. It may have the regular charge but after computing the force it may experience the opposite behavior via F=ma since the mass is negative.

We don't really know if the charge is opposite or the mass. Blindly using the equations you may get similar results depending where you stick the negative.

Also, I seem to recall Dirac predicting the existence of antimatter because some solution to an equation had an m^2 term and when you take a square root to solve for m there are two solutions. Then the positron came along and this was forgotten and people just assumed it had positive charge rather than negative mass.


Antimatter isn't some unobserved theoretical thing. It's produced daily at most large hospitals. We absolutely know that its electric charge is opposite that of the normal matter counterpart.


>. We absolutely know that its electric charge is opposite that of the normal matter counterpart.

Here is a contrived example calculating a hypothetical quantity X = m * Y.

Suppose we observe that X is always negative.

By your logic, we would then assume that Y is always negative.

This is true if m is never negative, but it is somewhat possible that we would eventually find a situation where m is negative and Y is positive.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say.


How do we know that? Because of how it behaves in electric and magnetic fields. In particular, how it accelerates. It obviously has a negative sign in it somewhere. My point is that we don't know if that sign flip is in charge or mass. A lot of the math behaves in accordance with observation whether we flip the charge or the mass.



>How do we know that

Both theory and experimental validation. Their interaction with electric fields, their interaction with gravity, conservation laws, and so on.


Unfortunately this isnt correct. We know it has the opposite charge. This is due to conservation laws which include, among other things, the conservation of charge.

In a given interaction, charge is always conserved. So we see interactions where an electron and a positron collide they produce a chargeless photon. So it must have the opposite charge to an electron


Thank you. That's the first thing anyone has said that disambiguation it for me. My first thought was "but what if mass is concerned and the positive and negative mass cancel out?" But I quickly remembered the photons have the mass-equivalent energy, so the mass doesn't cancel, it gets "converted".

Is there energy in an electric field? If so it must be signed or it wouldn't cancel out.


> Is there energy in an electric field? If so it must be signed or it wouldn't cancel out.

The energy contained in the electromagnetic field is nonnegative: as I understand it, within a given volume, it's simply the sum of the photon energy of all of the photons.

Meanwhile, electrons and positrons exist in their own particle field, and have both positive mass energy and nonnegative kinetic energy. When an electron and positron annihilate and produce photons, they convert their combined mass energy into kinetic energy in the photons. The only thing that gets "canceled out" is the positive and negative electric charge.


Positive mass draws things towards it (gravity) so negative mass would push things away (anti-gravity), therefore they would just cancel out if they were the same magnitude


Very good point!


Flubber? (From the original? haven't seen the remake)




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: