It's extremely rude in my opinion when people simply don't turn their cameras on in virtual meetings. Unfortunately, no one at my workplace except me does.
Rude? Have you considered the other side? I'm extremely fatigued by having the camera on, I feel surveilled and every movement I do in front of it is calculated by my unconscious mind. It takes a real toll on my productivity having to have the camera on for a string of meetings.
I feel it's extremely rude to dismiss others' experiences with the damn camera on for a virtual meeting. What is up that you need someone else to have a camera pointing to their face that you can't have with their voices? For most meetings that I don't require my computer I'll even go for a short walk around the house, while bouncing ideas, raising questions and so on. I feel much more productive in the meetings I'm able to disengage from my computer and surroundings and immerse on the conversation without having to care about a camera showing my face.
Being very honest, being forced to turn my camera on is a major red flag, the fatigue is real and consumed me after a year on this, since last December I've been turning my camera off and it's been incredibly productive.
Judge as much as you want but it seems you have no empathy, worse than that, you want to force your ways of working unto others without even considering others' struggles with it.
> What is up that you need someone else to have a camera pointing to their face that you can't have with their voices?
Smiles, frowns, nods, glazed looks, puzzled looks, surprised looks, I-want-to-say-something-but-I-can't-get-a-word-in looks, zoning out, impatience, et cetera, et cetera. There's really a lot people communicate with their faces, both consciously and unconsciously.
If I'm at an in-person meeting of 5-8 people, and 3 of them get into a longer discussion about things that are irrelevant to me, and for understanding which I don't have the background, I can zone out and nobody cares, because nobody is looking at me. Everyone is looking at the people talking.
On a video call, my zoned-out face will make the trio feel uneasy; instead of discussing their topic quickly, they'll stumble and try to "talk to the audience", or god forbid, drag everyone else into the discussion. So with forced camera on, I have to look focused while squinting at the other screen, discretely playing 2048 and pinching myself to not yawn visibly, while with camera off, I could get off my chair, stretch a little, or do something actually useful for the company.
I'll be happier with having always-on camera on long videocalls when videocalls start working like real-life meetings: not everyone is looking at everyone else all the time, and everyone can tell who's looking at them in any given moment. The way things are today, I find this constant surveillance to be mentally tormenting, and only activate my camera on the basis of courtesy: 1:1 meetings, some team meetings, meetings with an important higher-up who also has their camera on, etc.
I use people zoning out as a sign that the topic is not a good fit for this meeting, and should be discussed outside of it with a smaller group. That seems to work well to keep meetings quick and on point.
This is fair, but I'm skeptical that these things are actually taken into account in the vast majority of video meetings. Whereas you're right, they're important face-to-face.
I constantly think about how I'm coming across, whether my hand gestures are visible in frame, if I look like I'm frowning too much, if I'm nodding big enough to be seen, if I seem like I'm not paying attention when I look away from the screen, etc etc
But is that because you have the visual feedback of yourself? As I say, I can relate and that's why I disable my own tile.
I'm being a bit encroaching here, but I'm guessing you'd have to do as much and probably more self regulation in in-person meetings. Nobody cares where your hands are, probably no one even looks at them because you're one of many tiles. Where you're looking is not interesting because nobody knows where your camera sits related to your face. I constantly look out the window while talking. Genuinely, I've had to force eye contact on bad days in in-person meetings and everyone knew, it felt as pathetic as looking at my own face and checking if my gesturing and face ist appropriate
No, to be clear, I would have more anxiety because I wouldn't know how I'm coming across. I guess my question is, if I'm one of many tiles and no one cares where I'm looking, what's the point of having the camera on?
In small to medium sized groups, body and facial language helps to understand how a person feels about something. Most people like to imagine everything is completely rational but most things at work have a human component. If I feel like someone's unhappy with the work they're allocated I will ask them about it. It's like watching a movie without the image.
In my context there is the unspoken agreement that we turn cameras on when a meeting starts and after greeting and checking the agenda everyone is free to turn their camera off.
> I feel surveilled and every movement I do in front of it is calculated by my unconscious mind
What do you do in in-person meetings? Or supermarket visits etc.? Everything you do is way more visible in those, and I've never heard anyone complain about being surveilled in person.
Do you feel the same way in front of a camera pointing to your face as you do on a normal day-to-day interaction with non-verbal cues, room to use body language to express yourself, etc.?
It's not about the visibility, it's the psychological impact it has, having a camera pointed directly at my face 100% of the time is very different than sitting in a room, reading others' faces, attention (where are they focusing their gaze? When are they drifting off? When are they tapping their fingers on the table?).
I don't know why I hear this argument so many times, a camera on my face is a very different experience than sharing a room with others, I don't see the parallel.
Well, I don't understand, as the parallel seems obvious; you're meeting with a group of people and you can see them and they can see you. If anything I feel freer with the camera, as others' visibility of me is much more limited than in person. I like cameras in meetings for exactly what you say, reading others' faces, attention, body language, non-verbal cues, etc. Without being able to see people I find it much harder to understand them, and to be sure they're understanding me.
When I'm meeting in person I can move around, I can look at whoever is the center of attention at the moment without having to care if someone is watching me, it's much more easy to tell if you are being watched or not and when to relax or not.
The parallel does not work, I don't think it's that hard to realise that a camera pointing at your face, showing how you look at any given moment to anyone that looks at you and you can't tell if they are looking at you or not is equivalent to an in-person setting where you are aware of your surroundings much more naturally.
I really don't know how to be more explicit than this about the major differences between in-person to a virtual meeting with cameras...
I guess I don't have that strong need to know exactly when someone is looking at me. If I'm with other people I behave as if they can see me, because they probably can, and if appropriate I relax. I don't think I could reliably keep track of who was looking at me in an in-person meeting with more than three people anyway. Keeping track of that and changing behaviour when people look at me or look away seems like it would be exhausting.
Do you feel this during in person meetings? Where you are constantly surveilled and every movement you make watched?
You feel this way shopping in the grocery store? Where the cashier is constantly looking at you when speaking? Is your productivity lower because the other people in the store can see you?
The problem with virtual meetings is you can't tell what someone is looking at. If you have 9 people looking straight ahead, it looks like they are all looking at you.
This may not be an issue for you, but it makes some people uncomfortable. Add anxiety disorder and it's a fucking nightmare. I have no issue if I can see where people are looking.
I’m sure this doesn’t apply to you at all, but cynically, I just feel that when I hear these weird to me reasons that I can’t understand, I just assume the person hasn’t showered in a week.
I had female coworker confide to me that she didn’t like turning her camera on because it takes 40 minutes to apply her makeup every day. So she only does it for important meetings, but otherwise leaves the camera off.
> So... if you don't understand someone else's reasons for doing something, you assume they aren't being honest with you?
I feel you are getting somewhere with this train of thought, so far I've replied a few people on this thread that seems to think this way and project this need of having a camera on because they don't understand how that can negatively affect others and assume people are being dishonest.
Having a disability that isn't visible, I deal with this problem all the time.
The underlying issue is thinking of other's behavior as if it it was own behavior and then determine the other person's motivates from that assumption.
If you don't understand someone else, you'll assume their reasons for a specific thing are the same as if you were doing that thing.
Example: I take more days off than I have PTO for.
Conclusion: I'm claiming to have a disability to get to have more vacation days.
Reality: I've gone six months without any kind of vacation and many of my weekends spent barely recovering from work. My disability has taken so much from me that I find it hard to justify staying alive.
When I get back to work, people ask how my vacation was.
> I’m sure this doesn’t apply to you at all, but cynically, I just feel that when I hear these weird to me reasons that I can’t understand, I just assume the person hasn’t showered in a week.
If you are working remotely, does it matter? Does it matter if someone hasn't showered in a week and doesn't want to show that on camera but is still a productive worker?
I really don't get this nosiness about people's lives when you aren't sharing a common physical space.
I enjoy sometimes being able to get out of bed a bit later, not having time to do a full morning ritual before work if I can get some 30-45 min more out of my sleep, why should I have to care about all of that to show my face to colleagues on camera? Why should you judge someone that doesn't want their camera on?
Ever think that its people like you that drive people to not want to turn on their cameras? The fear of constantly being watched and judged? If someone is working remotely the way they look or if they have not showered is completely irrelevant. Only questions that matter are is the work getting done and is the person answering questions competently. Nothing else should matter, least of all if you can watch them on cam.
If other participants having a tiny 200px image of you (among 6 other people) in the corner of their screen is extremely fatiguing to you, how does it work when you go to the office ? Do you get seizures after 15min of in-person meeting ? Panic attacks ? How did you deal with life 5 years ago ?
Going from mostly physical office to mostly work-from-home on zoom is already a massive change that gives a lot of comfort to people. I think refusing literally ANY kind of human interaction apart from sound and written text is waaaay too anti-social.
Interaction is good, interaction is fine, this is where good ideas come from. Don't become a virtual entity. Humans are real.
Video conferences are as if everybody were potentially constantly staring at you, but you couldn't tell if or when this was the case, and despite everybody looking at you, you couldn't even make eye-contact with anybody, share a smile etc.
No, I like offices, I'm a very outspoken and outgoing person, I enjoy social interactions. I don't like a camera pointing at my face.
It's not that difficult to see that this is a very different experience than sharing an office. And I'm tired of repeating this.
This is the 3rd time I'm replying that I feel that the experience of a camera is very different than real life interactions and I like real life interactions, I'm getting really exhausted of this non-sequitur being repeated...
I think it very much depends on the circumstances, just like most social rules. If somebody is in an office space, then it can make sense to have everybody on camera as the default. On the other hand, if people are working from spaces that were never intended as working space, then it would be rude to assume that they should give a view into their private space.
For the first ~12 months of the pandemic, I was working from home, using my desk in the living room because there wasn't a good spot for it anywhere else. Having my camera on would have meant having my living room in full view, often including my partner on the couch in the background. While background detection/subtraction does exist, it isn't perfect, and so that would be an intrusive view into our private area.
I've since moved to a different location, with a room to be a dedicated home office. Here, it wouldn't impose on private space to turn on the camera, because that was part of the intent behind that room. However, you as the person on the other end of the call cannot know which situation somebody is in, and so it would be rude to insist on video beyond a polite request.
Counter point: i find the expectation to have a camera turned on rude.
Different people have different expectations and there are probably a lot of reasons for the wide variety.
However it kinda sounds like you have a different expectation than the team you work with. Would be mindful of taking the stance that ‘everyone else is wrong’
That tells you your opinion is wrong. It is not rude at all and nobody but you minds. Just say "I would prefer if" instead of claiming that something "is rude".
It may depend on the context. In a small or one on one meeting, yes it is usually rude. In a meeting with more than 5-10 people where I'm not expected to be a very active participant? I think it's fine. I also expect if someone would like the camera to be on at these meetings they would be able to tell me that and I'd usually be happy to do so if requested.
In one-on-one meetings we're usually discussing some technical detail or issue, and one or both of us will be looking at an IDE, or a document, or something that is not the browser tab where the audio is coming from.
Not having a camera distracting me helps me to help the other party and give them my full concentration. This is amply reflected in the audio, just like a telephone call, and in a one-on-one call you can both just leave the mic open and have a normal conversation with all the social cues audio communication offers.
I don't know, I have kept my camera on for the last 6 months during my current project and it is exhausting. Its not like a regular in person meeting, your face is magnified. Every flaw is made larger, if I have not shaved or had a chance to shower yet (we have very early meetings to accommodate offshore teams) its obvious. Keeping the camera on means that people are seeing your house which is far more personal that meeting in an office. I have kids that regularly wreck the place and if I don't have time to clean up after dropping them off at school it can be obvious. In addition camera being on means I have to face it and it limits my ability to work during the meeting. One might argue that I should not be working during the meeting but I have work that needs to get done regardless of how many useless meetings I am dragged into every day (lots). I decided today that going forward I am going to keep my camera off. If someone calls me out on it I will reconsider but going forward I am going to be comfortable. Working from home already means I am always at work, I am going to attempt to claw back some of my independence.
Why rude? Organizer of the meeting should either tell participants to use camera or whichever they prefer. And chosing not to turn it on is far from rude
