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> Having saw Epic's developer account terminated by Apple, I would definitely stay away from any "Sign in with Apple".

If you don't renege on your agreements with Apple as part of a public pissing contest, and you aren't in the business of misleading customers and creating deceptive apps, it's unlikely they'll revoke your developer account.



There's an explicit list of websites that are not allowed to integrate with "Sign in with Apple". https://developer.apple.com/sign-in-with-apple/usage-guideli... Nothing stops Apple from adding more requirements in the future, even if you don't start a feud with Apple.


There's an explicit list of websites that are not allowed to integrate with "Sign in with Apple".

I don't think anyone is crying over Apple not wanting to handle authentication for web sites offering "Illegal drugs or non-legally prescribed controlled substances."

The rest of the list is similar.

And yes, with that list Apple has once again affirmed it's not interested in helping normalize pornography. That's its choice.


Sure, but at the end of the page:

> Apple reserves the right to disable Sign in with Apple on a website or app for any reason at any time.


Wow, you can’t even use sign in with Apple if you

“Show Apple or its products in a false or derogatory light.”

Who decides what’s false or derogatory?


A court of law.


No, there's no world where Apple blocks access to an account because they're showing derogatory content towards Apple products, and a company gets a judge to overturn that block because it's not technically libel. Apple has the right to block you from their sign-in for any reason. Short of pulling a move like Epic and suing them for antitrust, a court of law is never going to enter into the equation.

None of these are legal definitions, Apple gets to decide what they mean. And no court of law is going to rule that they don't have the right to block when their TOS end with:

> Apple reserves the right to disable Sign in with Apple on a website or app for any reason at any time.


> Apple gets to decide what they mean.

(IAAL, this is not legal advice.)

That's not how contract law works. There's a whole body of law around how to construe language in contracts, and it's subject to litigation and dispute if the definition isn't made clear in the contract itself.

> no court of law is going to rule that they don't have the right to block

Then you don't know courts very well. Such clauses are still subject to the law and public policy. For example, no competent court is going to allow anyone to use an escape clause to terminate a contract with someone because of their race, age, or gender.

But yeah, if you use someone's services and then publicly talk trash about them? Why should they be forced to continue to do business with you?


> But yeah, if you use someone's services and then publicly talk trash about them? Why should they be forced to continue to do business with you?

Do you really not see how saying, "businesses should be allowed to sever ties with people who say mean things" is different from saying, "the courts will decide whether or not you committed libel"?

> For example, no competent court is going to allow anyone to use an escape clause to terminate a contract with someone because of their race, age, or gender.

Do you think there's a difference between a court saying, "we're not going to allow you to sever a business relationship because of a protected characteristic", and "we're going to regulate what does and doesn't count as disparagement"?

Can you point me at an example of a business fighting a disparagement clause in a contract with language like this and winning, based on a court deciding that what they said didn't count as disparagement?

This is like the people who say they're going to sue Facebook for taking down posts because their definition of "misleading information" isn't specific enough. You can sue anyone for anything, but you're not going to win that case. Companies with contract language like this have broad leverage to wield their power in whatever way they see fit -- because for the most part courts have not ruled that escape clauses boiling down to "we can decide to ban you at any time for any reason" are illegal or unenforceable.


> Do you really not see how saying, "businesses should be allowed to sever ties with people who say mean things" is different from saying, "the courts will decide whether or not you committed libel"?

Of course I see that. Contract law and defamation law (tort) are separate domains. A court does not have to conclude that a party to a contract committed libel in order to determine that they are in breach for making disparaging remarks about the counterparty. The layperson might (understandably) believe that the analysis would be identical, but it is not. A finding of libel under tort law requires a multi-part test which I won't elaborate on here, and there are lots of defenses, too.

> Companies with contract language like this have broad leverage to wield their power in whatever way they see fit -- because for the most part courts have not ruled that escape clauses boiling down to "we can decide to ban you at any time for any reason" are illegal or unenforceable.

I think we're in violent agreement for the most part -- I'm just saying that your characterization is overbroad since obviously "any reason" is not quite "any reason." As engineers, we should strive to be as accurate as possible in our analyses and avoid hasty overgeneralizations.

At bottom, courts aren't generally inclined to force parties to do business with each other if one of them is no longer interested, there are no promises left to be fulfilled, and there's nothing binding them to an infinite term (which courts also don't like to enforce). Apple is not a common carrier or the government, and so they're treated just like anyone else for the purpose of contract law.


> But yeah, if you use someone's services and then publicly talk trash about them? Why should they be forced to continue to do business with you?

Nobody said they have to, just that it's very dangerous to depend on such a service. I say bad things about companies all the time!


unilateral agreements that one side can change on a whim is not something that one would call a fair agreement in the first place.


unilateral agreements that one side can change on a whim is not something that one would call a fair agreement in the first place.

Wait till you read the fine print in your cell phone contract.


Do you really think a company the size of Apple is going to separately negotiate terms of service with every developer that wants to publish an app?

Contracts of adhesion are just a part of life. We agree to them practically every day whenever we do business with a third party. And if you were in the other party's shoes, you'd do the same thing; otherwise you couldn't practically run a business.


Well, both companies do that - The various epic EULAs let them behave just as apple does, so they can't argue it's unfair unless they want all their existing EULAs to be invalidated as well.


But we can still avoid Apple services in support of those Apple doesn't like, open standards and free competition.




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