For those interested in going deeper into the incredible world of breathing techniques I recommend "Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art" [0]. Part personal account, part research summary, the book covers a lot of the world's ancient breathing traditions (including Wim Hof and his antecedents), as well as what modern science has to say about them.
As with many other aspects of holistic health, it's incredible how Western medicine has ignored verifiable scientific evidence about the wide range of health benefits one can derive from these breathing techniques.
A smattering of advice from the book:
* Breathe through your nose, NOT your mouth (except when talking).
* Breathe slowly, softly, not (necessarily) deeply. Optimal breath rate is roughly 5.5s inhale, 5.5s exhale, 5.5 breaths per minute, 5.5 L of air inhaled.
* * Many people tend to over-breathe, which has a number of detriments, including stimulating anxiety.
* As with most aspects of health, the body does best with most-of-the-time low stress (see above "Breath slowly") punctuated by short intense intervals of high stress. Wim Hof breathing is the high stress workout that exercises your breathing system and builds breath flexibility.
* Chew tough stuff, exercise your jaw. This can help build wider mouths (new bone growth!) and open up your airways.
> exercise your jaw. This can help build wider mouths (new bone growth!) and open up your airways.
Do you have a citation for that? Jaw bone pretty much stops growing in your late teens.
Increasing bone density is not the same as actual bone growth. By that rational doing deadlifts would stimulate your leg bones to continue grow which is obviously untrue.
I suspect it does actually cause your leg bones to adapt, however not by getting longer. Just how often are powerlifter's skeletons examined for adaptations? See the research into the arm bones of British archers who pulled a +100lb bow. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/09/30/br...
Agreed, your bone tissue effectively has mini piezoelectric sensors, the more mechanical pressure you apply on them the more you signal for tissue 'reinforcement', this leads to an increased _density_ (not growth) of the bone tissue in that region.
Bone _growth_ during childhood and early adulthood is mostly hormone regulated AFAIK.
There is nothing that I know that supports that earlier claim that chewing hard things makes your jaw bone 'grow'.
Dunno whether it does, but if it does, I bet South Africa Biltong chewers must have strong masculine square jaws fit to bite off any competition then.'
If I understand correctly from the various articles on this topic, there is a theory (with some evidence) that the lack of difficult chewing in childhood while the jaw is developing, leads to smaller mouths and tooth or breathing issues. Nestor's book does not make the claim that chewing tough foods as an adult makes a difference. What he does refer to extensively is a doctor that has an expander device to enlarge the jaw (which does work in adulthood).
He actually does make this claim very specifically. In his conclusions chapter, one of the main headings is "Chew", where he states: "the bones in the human face don't stop growing in our 20s, unlike other bones in the body." And then goes on to recommend eating "foods that require an hour or two a day of hard chewing".
I seem to recall that earlier in the book he describes some research that documented this effect, but I don't have a reference.
Chewing hard stuff will make your jaw muscles stronger, but the reason you most likely have bruxism is due to a habit of chewing and its an automated reflex. Do you chew gum?
The top review has me concerned, it claims the book says plants exchange oxygen for carbon dioxide and that deoxygenated blood appears blue, both of which are incorrect. Does the book really say that?
One of the primary reasons I like to eat meat (am nearly vegetarian and happy that way) or chew gum its good for your brains -- other than respectively B12 and fresh breath.
When a friend first told me about taking cold showers everyday, I thought he was incredibly motivated and a little crazy. Then when I finally decided to look into it and did the breathing technique, I realized I might be able to take a cold shower. Now I've been taking 1-2min cold showers (after my regular hot shower), every day for the last 4 months. It gives me a huge boost of energy, way better than coffee.
Also, I recently read a translation and comment of the first speech by Buddha after enlightment. At it's most basic, the Wim Hof and Buddha's teaching seem very similar: make a continuous effort to face the uncomfortable. The main difference is in the way they go about it and the end goals. Wim Hof is just providing a very straightforward method to systematically face discomfort (in the form of cold), whereas Buddha gives a slightly more complicated method, but with the goal of reaching full detachment (Nirvana). You can also do both together.
I began thinking of grit and will power as muscles that get stronger with exercise. I don't know if it's actually true but I'm okay with placeboing myself on this one. You exercise it anytime you face being uncomfortable with resilience. When I go for long runs and I reach the point where I'm not enjoying it any more and I just want to be done I think to myself, "this is the best part, this is the part where I'm getting stronger." It affects every other part of my life, it's training my default mental mode to be "I can do this" even when things look hard.
When you wrote 'way better than coffee', I had to think of my favourite morning routine: getting up and going straight to work on my bicycle. In winter this gives me a sort of freshness shock that may be similar to the cold shower. There's nothing quite like it in terms of waking up: indeed it's better than coffee.
I agree except when I bike an hour to work at -10f I actually need a few minutes for my brain to defrost before I'm even capable of having a conversation. I'm not sure why, it's like everything I didn't exercise is stiff and needs to thaw out. Feels fuckin great though do recommend!
According to the Wim Hof philosophy, your cold exercise is activating a similar pathway to survival or even fight-or-flight if you approach it correctly. Your blood chemistry and neuro-chemistry are substantially different, and it takes time for your logical, civilized neural pathways to be preferred again.
As soon as I transition from outdoor winter exercise to an indoor environment my nose runs like a faucet. I keep a hanky handy to deal with it. Otherwise I feel pretty good when I get to work and I'm ready to take on the day.
Like the cold shower, I think the effect is best when its not affecting your body tperature too much. When my commute went from 20 to 45 minutes, insulation became necessary and the pleasant effect was not enhanced.
Thing with commuting by bicycle is weather and sweat. I don't wanna be sweaty when I arrive, nor have my clothes all wet. That being said an optional walk (instead of say a bus) of 10-25 min is my preference. Sitting, especially when its humid (summer, rainy/snowy), makes me tired.
My personal experience doesn't agree with this. In college I had a habit of waking up with the exact minimum amount of time necessary to get to class. I would throw myself out of bed, get dressed and brush my teeth as quickly as possible, sprint down the stairs, and then race my bike as quickly as I could to class--only to fall back asleep as soon as I was in my chair.
In fairness, I was rather sleep deprived at that time.
I think you can commute-as-exercise, and commute-not-as-exercise. They're different engagements.
When I lived in Berlin, I would run in the mornings in the winter... it'd be below freezing. 1st 5 minutes I'd be cold, but once I started running-running, I was warm and the temps didn't bother me.
Then I'd come home, shower, breakfast and ride my bike to the office. I'd be cold.
The article doesn't mention it, but there is a long tradition of hesychastic prayer[0] in Christianity, starting with the desert Fathers, and continuing in the practice of the Jesus Prayer. Some teachings about the Jesus Prayer which emphasize the importance of breath also include serious warnings about the possibility of bodily harm if the prayer is not done correctly. While early practitioners likely saw this as God's judgement on the unrighteous, current practitioners better understand the physiological effects of breath work, and the potential dangers if done incorrectly.
I don't think so. I know that he was interested in Buddhist stuff (source: some documentary).
But when I talked to him, he told us (part of the Radboud experiment in 2014, I think) that he just jumped into cold water and was forced to learn how to breath in such a way that he wouldn't freak out.
Note/edit: As you can see from my writing my memory isn't pinpoint accurate. Given that the article was published in 2014 [1], I'm sure I'm probably wrong in the year when I talked to him as it then most likely would've been April 2013 since I had to keep the results of the study a secret for at least a year.
I did the same excluding breathing exercises. It has come to be the thing I am looking forward. For some reason, I feel good after. I started because I was super sickly, getting common cold all the time. It seems to slowly get better.
There are also translations around that come via the Chinese cannon instead.
The suttas are probably very hard to understand without background knowledge or commentary (or, really, actual practice), but of course I don't know which of the commentaries GP refers to. The dhammacakkappavattana sutta, being one of the important/famous ones, has truly voluminous commentary from truly voluminous sources.
GP refers to "continuous effort to face the uncomfortable". I'm not sure that I'd use that sentence to summarise the Buddhas teaching to be honest. But I suppose that it could be a reference to the 6th limb of the noble eightfold path (right-effort), or the 7th (right-mindfulness), or to the 1st noble truth (the truth of unsatisfactoriness/ suffering).
I take cold showers. They do virtually nothing for me except if I am extremely sleepy.
"make a continuous effort to face the uncomfortable"
That's not the Buddhist teaching. The Buddhist teaching is apathy to everything via lack of desire.
"but with the goal of reaching full detachment (Nirvana). You can also do both together."
The stated goal of Buddhism is lack of desire. The stated goal of modern meditation is a reduction in cortisol/blood pressure(source: Altered Traits) and improvements in the frontal cortex(source: Kelly McGonigal). Neither of these work better than medicine for the former or say, athletic training, for the latter.
Meditation is magic to HN. It's weird. I am also sure 90% of people claiming it's magic have it done it for a week of something - if you did it long enough, you would know it does nothing.
Bring the downvotes (though I challenge you to try to reply what you disagree with, if you do). The author of Altered Traits, who spent a lifetime researching meditation, still ended up taking blood pressure meds after his retreats failed to lower his BP.
No, actually not as that is totally and utterly physically and mentally impossible. Your body and your mind are _made_ to desire and act, there is no sense in denying this and Buddha sure as hell did not.
What you're looking for is lack of attachment. Desire is no problem, it's the attachment to it (and it's the same with everything). The belief in an I that is doing the desiring, that is what is causing trouble, not desire itself. It is nature doing its thing, there is no problem there.
The Buddha taught that the root of all suffering is desire, tanhā. This comes in three forms, which he described as the Three Roots of Evil, or the Three Fires, or the Three Poisons.
1. The Bhagavad Gita is a completely unreadable rant that provides ZERO tangible information without a 1000 interpretations, like many other religious texts. Except it's the worst offender. Though, Oppenheimer did make it sound way cooler than it is.
The 4 noble truths / the 8-fold path are a breath of fresh air in comparison.
2. Lacking desire and detachment from desire is pure semantics, as the goal is not to desire the object of your desire. See how redundant that statement is?
Essentially, Buddhism is about apathy. Why? Because poor people in India at the time of the rich-kid prince had no way to address suffering through action.
Being a Christian monk / ascetic is the same thing as being a Buddhist - escape from the real world.
---
"cessation of desire but detachment from that desire"
"but detachment from that desire"
So, "a lack of desire for the object of desire", to address your quote specifically and stress what I said above.
> 2. Lacking desire and detachment from desire is pure semantics, as the goal is not to desire the object of your desire. See how redundant that statement is?
Technically the goal is to be able to freely choose what to do when the desire arises (instead of having a knee-jerk reaction pattern), which is very different than not having the desire.
The problem I see here is that you are trying to use words to completely define something which cannot be fully expressed in words. Buddha's teaching requires practice, not intellectual or philosophical "understanding" of the words. When you start practicing and develop awareness of the things that happen within your mind and body, only then you truly get to "know" (experience) the difference between desire and detachment from desire.
> Essentially, Buddhism is about apathy. Why? Because poor people in India at the time of the rich-kid prince had no way to address suffering through action.
In a purely philosophical, sociological or historical sense, maybe you are right. But the intention and the practice of Buddha's teachings are most definitely not about apathy in any way, even if the words can be somehow thought of as meaning that. Again, the issue is that you truly need to experience these things within you to really know them.
> That's not the Buddhist teaching. The Buddhist teaching is apathy to everything via lack of desire.
First, Buddhism is a term that includes a huge range of religions and practices derived from Buddha's teachings.
Second, I don't know what form of Buddhism you are talking about, but Buddha certainly didn't teach apathy, in fact one of the biggest emphasis in his teaching was compassion, which is pretty much the opposite of apathy.
One of the problems, at least in English, in understanding Buddha's teachings, is translation. The words he originally used to describe what he felt and what to do about it, have no direct translation into English.
In my case, before reading a book about Buddha's teaching, I understood the goal of Buddhism as the "cessation of suffering". But while reading the book and doing some meditation, I've come to understand it in slightly different terms that I can't fully describe with words because it's a range of feelings and reactions within me (body and mind) that now I interpret as the stated "suffering", even though it is not really suffering.
> Meditation is magic to HN.
I can't speak for HN. Personally, meditation has helped me calm down and be aware of my mood changes. It took me years to take up the practice, trying different things on and off.
Also, be aware that "meditation" is a bit like saying "exercise", there are thousands of different ways of doing it. Some you might like, other you might totally hate.
If you really want to know, I encourage you to dig deeper, there's a lot to discover.
> The Hof brothers are identical twins, but unlike Wim, Andre has a sedentary lifestyle without exposure to extreme cold. The scientists had them practice Wim's breathing exercises and then exposed them to the lowest temperature that would not induce shivering. They concluded that, "No significant differences were found between the two subjects, indicating that a lifestyle with frequent exposures to extreme cold does not seem to affect BAT activity and CIT."
> The researchers cautions that the "results must be interpreted with caution given the low subject number and the fact that both participants practised the g-Tummo like breathing technique."
What are we supposed to conclude from that? Given two identical twins both doing those exercises, both in temperature just above shivering, their BAT and CIT was same, therefore what?
2.) Also notably, neither study nor wiki claim that both brothers had equal resistance to cold.
3.) Lastly, Wim Hof claim is not so much that "gradually increasing exposure" makes him better at cold, his claim is that he found breathing techniques and has batter control over body functions. That may or may not be bullshit, but again, study is not disproving that.
Here I am going to quote exact same study:
> Core temperature decreased in both subjects with a smaller decrease (−0.18°C) in subject A compared to subject B (−0.40°C). As the accuracy of the measurement is ±0.1°C and due to the small range within core temperature is held, we interpreted the difference of −0.22°C as physiologically different. There was a clear difference in cold sensation and comfort between both subjects. [...] Furthermore, subject A reported that he was comfortable with these temperatures during the entire experiment, whereas subject B felt between uncomfortable and very uncomfortable. Cold exposure slightly increased heart rate in subject A (baseline: 46 beats/min versus cold: 52 beats/min), whereas it slightly decreased in subject B (baseline: 51 beats/min versus cold: 47 beats/min).
tldr; some physiological responses were different and one brother felt uncomfortable while the other felt ok.
Thanks, hadn’t read that about the study. Does make it seem more likely Wim Hof achieved some real effects.
However I should note that I randomly ended up in one of his workshops years back and he actually did claim that gradually increasing exposure does make you better at cold. It wasn’t the main thing but he did claim it.
> he actually did claim that gradually increasing exposure does make you better at cold.
This claim is true in the broad sense, but not just from gradual exposure. In the Marine Corps, I went through quite a bit of training in dealing with cold conditions. There are specific training requirements for cold exposure, and a tried and true methodology for increasing a person's capacity for dealing with the cold.
Biologically, your body will naturally adjust to a climate over time. This occurs when living in warmer or cooler conditions for a period of time. The main controls are metabolism speed, sweat threshold, and activity level.
One of the key ways to quickly adjust to a new climate is by a forced activity level in it. When we'd train in a new climate, we'd always start by doing forced marches during the peak condition (hottest or coldest time of day, depending on which condition we were unused to) for a day or two, then move on to runs, then to actual mission based training. On the first day or two, we'd all be shivering, miserable, joints swollen, etc... By day 3 or 4, that would all go away. You're still uncomfortable, but your body has adjusted.
Once you leave that climate, your resistance to the extreme temperature slowly fades (as you're adjusting to a new climate), but it seems to me that I still carry a bit of resistance to the extreme.
We'd do refreshers whenever we got the chance, taking people on "polar bear runs" in the middle of the night in the desert, in shorts and t-shirts, and that would help sustain the resistance to the cold.
> However I should note that I randomly ended up in one of his workshops years back and he actually did claim that gradually increasing exposure does make you better at cold. It wasn’t the main thing but he did claim it.
Ah, ok. I personally find that part uncontroversial, winter swimming clubs are pretty much thing where I live and they claim same thing. The thing I perceived as controversial/disbelieved were breathing techniques, superior body control and wild health benefits. Again, winter swimming clubs here claim health benefits too, but you are supposed to become less vulnerable to common cold and such rather then curing diabetes or cancer.
I really think you don't know what you are babbling about.
The only thing this test might be interpreted as is that the assumption that brown fat correlates with physical cold resistance capabilities might be wrong.
There's an interesting caveat here, the phenomenon is well known to apnea practitioners:
- Hyperventilating, then holding your breath underwater can easily be deadly.
- Doing the same without hyperventilation is much safer.
The difference lies in the fact that our ability to sense our limits are almost entirely due to CO2 buildup. We actually almost can't tell when we run out of oxygen, it's why pilots are fine one second and pass out the next when they don't notice that the oxygen runs out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUfF2MTnqAw).
Hyperventilating reduces your CO2 but leaves oxygen saturation almost unaffected, which for an unexperienced person is equivalent to doing a blind walk next to a cliff, and removing the barrier.
The reminder is never ever practice these techniques alone or at the same time as someone else. You need to have someone nearby who is aware of the practice, and can monitor your status at all times.
Ah Wim Hof, reminds me of my friend that had to fight crippling depression.(and still is fighting) He found out about the cold shower, breathing technique from Win Hof, and started practicing it.
What worked better than cold shower was Ice bath in the frozen lake. I were very skeptical at the practice first but oh boy, the sudden freezing shock really do wake some survival instinct inside you out, and your mind becomes really sharp. Until you keep doing it to a point of dizziness reminiscent of certain highs. If you are going to try cold shower, ice lake bath with sauna is also a experience worth trying out!
It didn't help him get out of depression, but sure did energize him more for a brief period of time in his life. (until his routine collapsed)
I did cold showers upto 10minutes, cryotherapy -90celsius upto 6min, hydrogen cryotherapy (-130c) upto 4 min. And only the supercold hydrogen gave me a (very) noticable and pleasant endorphine boost. Haven't tried ice baths yet.
I remember participating in a study for a friend of mine where I had to go into a cryochamber and I remember 2 very distinct things
1. How warm -60c felt after walking around in -130c for a few minutes in just shorts and shoes.
2. How much I wanted to run once I got out of the chamber. I was not a runner and I never liked running but I really wanted to run.
I kind of want to do it again to feel that high. Cold showers got a smaller reaction but something similar.
I need to get back into cold showers again but I definitely felt best when I was doing cold showers, it's a cheap trade of a few minutes of unpleasantness for such a mood boost but it's hard convincing yourself to do it first thing in the morning though.
Kambo, a properly dosed frog poison applied to the limbic system by first searing small dots through top layer of skin, has a similar effect by strongly engaging the immune system once it detects the poison - and causes a whole body reaction where the limbic/lymphatic system rapidly clears out the poison (and whatever other stagnant toxins are in the system), dumping them into the stomach which then have to be thrown up to clear them.
There are trained/certified shamans who offer kambo ceremonies.
Could you cite a source that says that toxins are dumped into the stomach in particular? I’m not very educated in anatomy but I’ve never heard of the lymphatic system interacting with the digestive system in this way. Thank you!
Not Wim Hof, but during the pandemic I've switched from swimming indoors to outside in a local lake which is a open water swimming spot managed by the council. I switched in the height of the northern summer - so no need for a wetsuit when I started, water was up to 26degC. As the weather has worsened though, the water temperature has gradually declined and I've just kept swimming. Down thorugh 22, 20, 18, 16 and on to 13.8 the other day.
I'm finally going to put my wetsuit on, as the other day was VERY intense, but the benefits of being in cold water are incredible. I am an absolute convert. The high is comparable to certain A class drugs, it's the best thing I've done in years, and you get to stay fit as well.
Something interesting I learned during one of his seminars was that breathing exercises can go a long way in providing most of the benefits. A lot of the media coverage focuses on cold exposure, but deep breathing is really the the core of the message. This is great because it means the barrier to entry is much lower since we all don't need to fill up our tubs with ice every week.
No, you inhale through your nose all the way, then exhale but not all the way out, to the point where you would be pushing it out if you let out more. Repeat 30-40 times. It is circular and continuous, you don't pause. Then exhale all the way out after your 35th cycle. Hold until you feel the intense urge to breath. Then inhale and hold for 15 seconds.
Repeat above 4-5 times. Optional: On the last rep, see how many push ups you can do when you fully exhale. Most people can do 30 to 50% past their max.
Just piggybacking on this a bit with some tips in case anyone reads this comment and wants to try it:
Do this laying down. You are essentially hyperventilating. By the 35th cycle, you should be feeling very lightheaded, possibly seeing stars. You absolutely can pass out or at least fall down during this process. Do it laying down or at least sitting so you don't injure yourself. Obviously, definitely don't do this in the water (you don't do the breathing exercises and ice baths at the same time).
The inhale through your nose you do fully, really trying to get as much air into your lungs as possible. The exhale that follows is really just a matter of relaxing everything and letting your ribcage collapse back down and the air leave; you shouldn't be pushing it out.
If you've never done it before, it can be fun to have a clock or timer going where you can see it. See how long you can comfortably hold your breath before that urge to inhale comes. You'll be amazed. Similar techniques to this breathing exercise (hyperventilating to lower the carbon dioxide levels in your blood) are one of the ways magicians like Houdini and others that do underwater escapes can hold their breath for so long (of course, don't try that at home).
I have been doing only cold showers for decades; as kid and a young adult I suffered from atopic dermatitis and I found that it would disappear completely if I stuck to cold showers and I could stop the steroid medication I was using.
I had to figure this stuff out on my own. So I support mr. Hof in what he is doing: If he can inspire someone to try these simple techniques out then it might help others like it helped me.
There's the paper: “Brain over body”–A study on the willful regulation of autonomic function during cold exposure (DOI:10.1016/j.neuroimage.2018.01.067)
From the abstract:
"Our results provide compelling evidence for the primacy of the
brain (CNS) rather than the body (peripheral mechanisms) in mediating the Iceman’s
responses to cold exposure. They also suggest the compelling possibility that the WHM
might allow practitioners to develop higher level of control over key components of the
autonomous system, with implications for lifestyle interventions that might ameliorate
multiple clinical syndromes."
I was doing cold exposure for a while, plunging palms and heels into water with ice. At first I could hold it a little there, but the duration was increasing with time. It's comfy to do while using laptop, mind doesn't focus on the hell going below :)
This source is a lifestyle rag for people who hike, camp, etc. They're recently posted some super unscientific stuff about not wearing sunblock so you get all your Vitamin D.
Sunblocks often have chemicals that leach into the brain/blood with alarming effects... and more people suffer from Vitamin D deficiency than skin cancer from prolonged exposure...
Well, Vitamin D deficiency is easy to treat with supplements instead. And I would say skin cancer is rather more serious than Vitamin D deficiency. I don't think the goal should be to have skin cancer and Vitamin D deficiency be equally common.
You're saying that sunblock enters the blood stream through the skin and that some of the ingredients can cross the blood brain barrier? Titanium dioxide and Zinc oxide are generally recognized as safe by the FDA. The ingredients that are somewhat questionable aren't sold in the US or Europe.
I'm from India and during the summer holidays, I was sent to a 'Yoga Retreat' by my parents where we spent the whole day doing various Yoga and Meditation activities. This is where I learned Pranayama. Wim Hof's breathing techniques feel awfully simular to Pranayama (While Wim Hof has one technique, there are multiple techniques in pranayama).
Im a sceptical person and don't trust anything unless I see the benefits of any activity unless I see the change right before my eyes. For some reason I stuck to Pranayama and did it every day for a year or so. I observed a marked improvement in my lung capacity and my ability to hold breath underwater (I used to compete with my friends in the swimming pool and would always stay underwater for much longer than them). Also, whenever I'm in any stressful situation (like just before an exam or interview), I used to do the breathing exercise for a couple of seconds (breathe in through one nostril and exhale through the other and vice versa) and all my stress used to vanish and my mind would become very calm and sharp. Not sure why I stopped practicing it but I need to get back into it.
For anyone interested, there's a free guided Wim Hof breathing session every Monday night at 9pm Pacific. I've been doing it on and off for a few months. No idea if it helps anything at all, but I enjoy it.
Is there a general timeframe where people experience the benefits of the breathing experiences? Like do I have to do it for weeks, month or years until I feel the effect?
Imo highly individual. In my practice, I've observed inflammation in my heel decrease in scale of a few weeks (my heel used to be inflamed after every run for a few days, with me unable to recover from 2 weekly runs of ~ 6km; after 2-3 week started to improve, now - 2 mo later - it is completely healed, can run 4-5 times a week, and bottleneck is now something else). The second effect I observe is my decreased fear of cold shower & improved ability to handle it (both psychologically and physically).
Sound intriguing to try out. I have plantar fasciitis most mornings also a diet change helped me a lot reduce the pain. Did you make any other changes apart from the breathing exercises?
One difference is that you can turn off cold shower when it becomes uncomfortable and typically you start by short cold showers. You proceed to longer ones only as you adapt. Another is that, water is more effective in cooling things then air.
If you are walking outside in t-shirt only, it is harder to get back to warm place when you suddenly feel cold or shivering. With cold shower, you just turn it off.
Well while I'm not a professional in the topic in any way, I'd personally seen the benefits of walking in the cold (e.g. in winter where people were wearing many clothes on top of each other) with just a tshirt: it makes me feel much more alive, alert (in a good way, not in an anxious way), and much more immune to pretty much anything both physically and mentally.
Funny you should say that. For a couple of years in my life, when I was about 20, I went through this phase where I went around all year long in just a t-shirt (and shoes and trousers, of course). I also took hot-and-cold showers: I showered with cold water then alternated cold and hot a few times.
I did this because I got sick and tired of catching a cold every year and having a very high fever (39 to 41 C all the time). I blamed having being overperscribed antibiotics as a child, which at the time I believed had weakened my immune system. That was probably nonsense, although it's true that when I was a kid it was common to give kids antibiotics for viral infections, so I got a lot of antibiotics for no good reason at all. I figured that exposing myself to cold would help me build up my immune system again. Also probably nonsense.
I can't tell if anything changed by what I was doing. I never felt any different from doing it, not "more alive" etc as others report. I got over my colds with high fever but that was most probably because I grew up (I think adults don't get such high temperatures from a cold as kids do). I sure got lots of strange looks and people kept asking me whether I'm a) cold and b) mad.
I didn't use any breathing techniques or meditation or anything like that. I didn't particularly exercise much, though I was a strong lad at the time (now, not so much). I think I just sort of willed myself to do it and did it and then realised it wasn't that hard after all. I think the true secret, the real lesson, is that we are made to withstand a lot more cold than we think and we're just used to being warm a lot more than we were meant to be if we lived without all our technology. Except of course we don't have to be cold because we have all that technology. So there's no reason for breathing exercises and so on to learn how to withstand the cold. That's what our brains are for.
If this is revolutionary, why isn't everybody following his method? My skeptic alarm is going off, but also all of the investigative content I read about it seems to support the claims. I'm puzzled on why this hasn't seen mass adoption.
"Because it doesn't make anyone money" is my best guess. I kinda hate how conspiracy-theory-ish it sounds, but I can't much deny it any more?
I'm one anecdotal data point:
Never heard of this guy, but the cold shower thing just sounded plausible enough that I figured I'd try it.
Not even the whole thing cold -- I start off with a hot shower and then just drop it for the last minute or so, as long as I can stand.
And -- it's CRAZY. After getting the regular yearly colds that I just presumed were a part of life...they just stopped. I haven't had any sort of cough/cold sickness at ALL going on about 3 years.
It's also hard. I used to do the same morning cold plunge as you. I have stopped, sometime in the last couple of months, because like any good habit, it needs to be maintained.
I am going to commit to doing this again tomorrow, though, because I remember that it makes me feel good.
To provide one anecdotal data counterpoint: I decided to try cold showers a few years ago (not Wim Hof method, just showers) and although I generaly get ill very rarely, that year I cougt something three times. It obviously does not prove anything, might have been just bad luck, but after the third time I did not have the willpower to restart the cold showers routine again.
Maybe I was doing it wrong but I do not know how - I started with just showering my legs with lukewarm water and progressed to colder water and longer time gradually, very slowly. However, it never made me feel as good as some people here descibe. Sometimes I felt slightly refreshed during the summer but more often I just felt cold and stiff and I had strong desire to return to bed to warm up but I could not do that and I had to sit in my office cold and miserable for hours.
Drop it INSTANTLY and just see how long you can last, even if it's only a few seconds. I know at first I was like okay, 5 seconds f* this.
But then you can make it a bit of a game for yourself, and after a while it just becomes habit.
(and fyi, I live in Florida, so staying in longer is much easier-- But I can say this switch made me change from dreading visiting relatives up North because that would ALWAYS make me sick --- to "aww yeah super cold showers in the morning," and you know, not getting sick.)
I haven't listened to them but can recommend the Medlife Crisis episode [0], in which he reviews the scientific literature around the effects of cold exposure, blood oxygenation/acidity from hyper-/hypoventilation, and related topics. He comes to the conclusion that Wim Hof is likely a genetic outlier, but that breathing techniques can have real physiological effects on things like pain perception, and that cold exposure likely has a bunch of real benefits – but also that placebo may play a big role (which is nevertheless a very real effect).
Yes, and that is impressive! But he has also set several cold exposure world records that these people probably couldn't replicate that easily, or perhaps ever.
I tried it, while I won't make any claims of massively improved health, it did one very notable thing for me.
I've perviously never been able to meditate (or self-hypnotise) my brain would always conspire against me and race with millions of thoughts.
When I tried the Wim Hoff breathing methods, everything was suddenly quiet. This in turn has made a lot of other small things in my life easier.
The claims may be overblown and some of the science dubious - but being able to reclaim some additional control over my brain has, to me, been worth the "risk" of trying breathing in a funny manner once a day.
A friend of mine tried it after being curious about my experiences for months, and immediately sent me a text message saying thanks.
I think perhaps it hasn't seen mass adoption because most people face some kind of psychological barrier in trying it either from fear, or seeing it as quackery and a waste of time. Coupled with mainstream medicine being reluctant to recommend something with relatively little supporting evidence (I guess). While Wim himself has succeeded in making money from it, it is also something that is difficult to patent and sell - unlike a pill (no big-phrama conspiracies here - just money is always a motivator)
From what I understand his methods are revolutionary for people with his same physiology. He and his brother were the subject of a study which seems to cast doubt on the potential of his claims for people without a similar physiology:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
How does experiment on his and his brother can possibly cast doubt on potential for different people? I mean, the study did not measured anything on different people.
The study showed that he and his brother, who has a similar brown fat physical makeup but doesn't follow the 'Wim Hoff method' performed pretty much the same.
I'm skeptical of health claims, but I have definitely personally found doing 3 rounds of Wim Hof + a cold shower in the morning leaves me feeling pretty great.
I would say it requires a level of discipline and interest in "doing work" that most people don't have, so even if it is as revolutionary as claimed, I wouldn't be at all surprised that not everybody is following the method.
It may or may not be fraudulent, but please keep in mind that certain US states have ~ 40% obesity rates. It sounds obvious to the non-obese that eating like there is no tomorrow is not conducive to a good life; and simple measures, like eating less and moving more, can dramatically improve quality of life. But to the obese, it might not be so obvious for a variety of reasons (and yes, there are also genetic and environmental and mental health problems contributing to obesity, but also not caring much about one's own life).
Not saying this specifically about Wim Hof, the topic at hand - but:
People are lazy. This is quite simply a truth, especially with regards to the USA.
If you're not from the USA, we have this absolutely fucking unfathomable obesity epidemic going on. It doesn't get talked about very much. 95%+ of the time, weight regulation is one of the simplest things we know of. Calories in and calories out.
Anyways, nobody really gives a fuck about that and will die on the hill of stating it's incorrect. They will then go on to buy the newest ONE PILL DOCTORS DONT WANT YOU TO KNOW ABOUT TO LOSE YOUR FAT OVERNIGHT for $19.95(x # payments) year after year, new pill doctors don't want you to know about after new pill doctors don't want you to know about, and still be obese, wondering why they specifically can't lose weight - science must just be against them.
Ranting about US citizens obesity aside, the tl:dr - Wim Hof most definitely isn't some ridiculously revolutionary thing, but for many it's damn helpful towards their life, but it also takes time and effort to do, which many people aren't disciplined enough to stick to. Also, you have to read. Believe it or not, large amount of people don't like reading lmao.
The US obesity epidemic probably has more to do with the sugar content of processed foods than with laziness. As you note, people in general are lazy. Vietnam has the lowest rate of adult obesity yet is the 8th most sedentary population in the world.
Agreed. I'm of the belief that Americans aren't obese because they're lazy or because they're gluttons; instead, I believe it's the food that's killing us. Processed food especially.
When I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes, I had to switch to a low-cab diet (which cut out a huge swath of processed foods), and I dropped from 170 lbs. to 150 lbs. in a few weeks. And I wasn't trying to lose weight—it just came off.
> Vietnam has the lowest rate of adult obesity yet is the 8th most sedentary population in the world.
I'd like to see a citation for this claim and how it was measured. People in Vietnam seemed much more up and active than people in America and they're much slimmer despite drinks there being sweeter than pure syrup in America.
I was a little skeptical myself. "data from the step-counting app Azumio Argus" - they counted steps. I can see how they might walk less as everyone gets around by motor scooter there which often involves less walking that using a car as you can normally park the thing at your destination rather than schlepping around looking for a car park. But I wouldn't really call them sedentary - they are quite a hard working bunch on average.
thats nonsense. The slimmest and fittest I ever was, was when I ate the most processed food in my life. I was cycling from my hometown in bavaria to nice in france. So I just had to eat all this garbage from the supermarket but it got burned immediatly. Funny that he gets downvoted he expressed his point in a very friendly way. I will just say it plainly: fat people are lazy. thats the reason they are fat. You can eat as much sugar and refined food as you want as long as you move around enough.
Age is also a factor -- when I was younger I could eat two large pizzas at one point without a problem. Now a couple slices and I feel like junk. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe ignorance/functional illiteracy of knowing how to read a nutritional label is a slightly more sound argument. Food deserts are a legitimate issue too. However, simply not caring is quite prevalent.
Don't take my word for it (how bad sugar is). Go to an expert: Dr. Robert Lustig, Endocrinologist at UCSF. "Sugar, the Bitter Truth" [0]. He'll describe the metabolic pathways of sugar. Key take-away: fructose is processed by the liver, and much of its calories is turned to fat.
It can be hard to avoid though especially in the US. I was amazed at the difficulty there of just getting a loaf of bread without sugar mixed in. In Europe they don't usually have sugar.
The sugar in American bread is ostensibly to allow yeast to ferment quicker than they would on flour alone, to impart bread-y flavors, not for sweetness. This shortens processing time.
Exactly, this is why I really really hate it when people say "Poor people should cook themselves" as if they wouldn't if they had the time or energy to. If you work minimum wage all day, especially with kids, cooking from scratch is a chore and a half.
The stuff you buy off the shelves is either cheap or healthy, rarely both.
I come from a family that was borderline of the definition of "extreme poverty" within the U.S.
This is a really poor argument.
Aldi spaghetti sauces have ~10g sugars compared to a bottle of coke having ~65g sugars. Look into how many people are using Aldi's spaghetti sauces vs how many people are guzzling coke.
Is over sugarized shit literally everywhere in the U.S.? Yes.
Can you genuinely not find anything without? No.
It is not hard. It's really, really not. As somebody else mentioned, lobbying in the U.S. e.g. the Food Pyramid was an obvious disaster that did nothing good for the situation.
The problem here is broken nutritional epistemology and lack of education. Remember that as recently as the early 1970s, it was broadly promoted, almost as a nootropic. In my home town in Australia it was common to add spoonfuls of sugar over breakfast cereal, Nutella and Milo (chocolate milk drink) were promoted as healthy sports foods for children, and a tablespoon of sugar (I know!!) was promoted as a good way to fix hiccups. My mother was ostracised by the other mothers at my school (in the early 00's, not the 70s) for not giving me Nutella, Chocolates, Lollies etc in my lunch.
I'm not making excuses here - it's more that unless you come from a privileged or niche background, especially before the internet, you would think this is normal. Imagine as a woman going to your GP doctor for a checkup in the 1980s and having them suggest you start eating spoonfuls of pure refined white sugar to help you control your appetite. Similar modern examples include the popularity of "Bubble tea" which should almost be regarded as a poison
It's not that its hard to find non-sugar food - it's hard to KNOW that's what you're meant to do, even in the most educated first world countries.
It's irrelevant that a bottle of coke has more here. My argument is even if you're being good and skipping candy/soda...etc that just the normal food you eat is loaded with the stuff. White bread, most cereal, sauces...goes on and on. There are items without it, but it's more expensive and certainly hard to say no to the sugary stuff even when we knows it's bad.
I'll cede that I misspoke when I said it couldn't be found at all, but it certainly takes more effort.
I think the problem is the amount of processed carbs rather than sugar on its own. Sugar is addictive but not in the concentration you'd get in a pasta sauce (in a can I assume).
IIRC most western countries are vastly over-caloried, and have a roughly inverse relationship between BMI and income too.
Processed carbohydrates are harmful, however sugar is particularly harmful in its effects on the hormonal system, insulin resistance, concentration, dental decay (and tooth growth in children), psychology of child, irratibility etc. Humans are simply not designed to consume such vast amounts of industrial grade sugar in such quantities.
You can literally throw sugar canes into a juicing machine and it has less sugar content than a can of coca cola
Here are some more mainstream sources. All "official" output on these subjects are heavily regulated and lobbied by corporate interests however. Further problem is that western culture is far too heavily empirical, whereas axiomatic/rationalist viewpoints on nutrition are often true and logical - it's just that nobody has paid the $$$ to "prove" them in a non-replicable study. However, my axiomatic broscience is frowned upon in the empiricist cult of the silicon valley so I have only linked to fairly establishment sources here. Still good for the basics
It is not just Sugar, it's also the fact that most Americans live on a diet full of industrially refined sugar, hydrogenated vegetable oil, strange chemical preservatives, flavouring agents, artificial sweeteners to avoid the sugar, and "no fat' products that achieve this in strange way. For instance,
It's further complicated by the fact that there is no functional epistemology of nutrition in the US; previous attempts to create one such as the "Food Pyramid" were heavily financed by food lobbying groups and are now distrusted. This leads to things like people deciding that carbohydrates are universally bad because removing deep fried potatos from their diet makes them feel better; or people swearing by vegetarianism because for the first time since childhood they stopped eating "Meat.jpg" like you find in hotdogs etc. Or people swearing by low fat diets because they stopped eating icecream deep fried in margarine.
There is also no underlying national food tradition; I live in South East Asia and in this country there is a strong tradition of eating steamed rice and steamed chicken as a staple food, as well as steamed eggs and seafood (shellfish, pan fried fish,etc) This means that with no nutritional knowledge the diet here is considerably better than the average person in the US.
Given that Americans are the nation with longest average working hours among developed world and the nation that is literally worshipping hard work, I find it dubious when people just throw lazy Americans around. I know it is usually Americans doing it to other Americans, but still.
My conclusion is that some effects are very real, according to best available science. But You have to filter that from Wim Hof's persona & explanation style, which to me often feels very hand-wavy & daresay sometimes even esoteric & his explanations/rationalisations are sometimes clearly off. (e.g. he often says that the breathwork/hyperventilation increases amount of oxygen delivered to cells, while in reality it is the opposite due to Bohr effect). But he imo definitely is onto something with the practice.
IF you read the article there were several science backed confirmations on his method, due emprical tests. Just read the article before comenting. And properly argue your response before send your reply.
Have you tried them and not had results? Because there are a lot of N=1s anecdotes about it working for people, hence the large following he has. Wim’s techniques helped me quit medical marijuana, and drastically improved my productivity and general wellbeing, including my sex-life due to stress-induced ED. It is only one flavor of breathwork, but I think you could be doing a disservice to yourself to label it all a pseudoscience, as if only narrowly-defined “science” has merit for human life, which has existed and thrived long before the double-blind RCT...
>Have you tried them and not had results? Because there are a lot of N=1s anecdotes about it working for people, hence the large following he has.
Placebo, make-believe and self-dellusion often work, especially for the kind of people looking into a miracle cure, which is what such leaders tend to accrue...
It's being looked down by the same people that tend to believe in miracle cures. One has to make his own reality true in order to cope with society and scrutiny. Placebo is required in trials for new medicine actually, far from being looked down upon.
Negative thinking can have a detrimental effect on physical health - usually labelled as stress. It seems completely reasonable that positive thinking could have positive heath benefits (assuming that our base line is somewhere in the middle between positive and negative). We should be investigating the mechanisms and encouraging people to do what has positive results.
Homeopathy sounds like a lot quackery to me, but if it works (via placebo or otherwise) and can improve peoples outcomes in a cost effective manner, then I am all for it.
>Negative thinking can have a detrimental effect on physical health - usually labelled as stress. It seems completely reasonable that positive thinking could have positive heath benefits
Sure. But that's neither here nor there, as bathing in ice cold water is not the mechanism - positive thinking is.
The idea that the Hof's regime did it, is what's the dellusion.
When you say "all", do you mean Wim Hof's methods or in general breathing techniques? Do you have links to studies which have conclusively proved that breathing techniques are no better than normal breathing?
What most people who are "anti-breath work" seem to not take into account is ig someone's baseline breathing is good to begin with or not - and simply drawing their attention back to their breath could bring them back to within a normal range; maybe someone's chest is tight and they have abnormal breathing, maybe someone's nose is congested most of time so they mostly mouth breath, etc - but aren't aware their breathing is so constricted/limited until they start to challenge the status quo breathing they've adopted over decades - to finally start feeling what normal baseline of getting adequate/proper oxygen exchange feels like.
I'm sorry Rubatuga, I flagged you. To be fair: I'm not having the best of days, so I might be a bit quicker to flag, but I find this behavior on HN unacceptable.
You make an overgeneralized claim ("this is all") and give no evidence.
There is an extreme amount of evidence on the contrary that the WHM has a lot of novel scientific elements to it. See [1] as an example.
Medlife crisis also did a good nuanced video on it [2].
[1] shows only that repeatedly hyperventilating then depriving oneself of oxygen affects various blood parameters. This is not surprising, and not evidence that the more pseudoscientific mind-over-body claims of the Wim Hof method are valid.
> In contrast, in trained individuals, practicing the learned breathing techniques resulted in an immediate and profound decrease of pCO2 and bicarbonate, and an increase in pH (reaching up to 7.75 in individual subjects; Fig. 2 and Movie S2), indicating acute respiratory alkalosis.
I'm not a doctor, but since I was part of the study and asked them a lot of questions, I can sort of interpret what they found, which is that your CO2 levels drop (among other things).
With the WHM breathing technique that means you'll be getting into a territory of prolonged oxygen deprivation. In my case I'd be holding my breath for 3 minutes (while completely breathing out beforehand, without the WHM, I could only hold my breath for 20 seconds).
They measured that while doing the WHM your adrenaline level is on average higher than your peak adrenaline level while you're bungee jumping.
> Epinephrine levels in trained individuals were even higher than those reported in a recent study in which acute stress elicited by a bungee jump was found to suppress cytokine production by leukocytes ex vivo stimulated with LPS (13).
It might be in the article, but my suspicion is that this is because of prolonged oxygen deprivation. See also Fig 3A for how high the adrenaline levels got.
So to me it's clear that the WHM gives you a lot of adrenaline. What does adrenaline do? Well, it makes you numb, it acts as a painkiller in the sense that it makes you feel less (again not a doctor, but based on my limited knowledge this is a fact). So that's one reason why it's easier to jump into really cold water.
Moreover, it yields some evidence to some "mind over body" claims. It isn't really mind over body, it's adrenaline that can be conjured consciously at will. I'm speaking also from personal experience [1].
[1] I've done this at many Dutch dance festivals (e.g. Liquicity, Mysteryland). Instead of taking drugs, I'd do the WHM to spike my adrenaline levels as high as possible and had a great time.
I'd call it "moderation" rather than "censorship", but if you want to view the "uncensored" version of the site, you can click on your sign-in name in the top-right of the header, and you will be taken to your profile. From there, set "show-dead" to "yes" to be able to view this and other flag-killed comments.
I and many others on the site prefer to view it in this form. If you have show-dead on and some minimum number of HN points (30?) you can "vouch" to revive a killed comment. I thought this particular example would have been better handled with a downvote-of-disagreement rather than a flag, so I vouched for it. I can understand mettamage's reaction, though, and don't blame him for flagging it.
>Wim Hof's teachings about breath work and the health benefits of cold plunges have attracted millions of followers who swear it has cured everything from depression to diabetes and makes them happier and stronger.
If it cured diabetes, certainly there is a way to scientifically confirm this rather than merely "swearing" it is so.
And if it did, that would be a breakthrough of unthinkable proportions.
I have type II diabetes, and swimming in cold water (SF Bay, temperatures 50°-65° F 10°-18° C) 3 times a week for six years has not changed my A1c (measurement of diabetes).
No one is "cured" of type II diabetes (exception: gestational diabetes). The best you can hope for is not to have to take meds, but the price you pay is an exercise regimen and an extremely disciplined diet (I haven't eaten rice, bread, pasta, or potatoes in 9 years). I don't take meds.
I believe there's a low-calorie treatment pioneered by a research group out of Oxford University a few years ago. The treatment was shown to send type II into remission.
The research group's definition of remission is, IIRC, "the diabetic no longer needs to take meds", e.g. metformin.
But this doesn't mean they're cured. For example, they can't binge on chocolate cake or pizza.
Instead, rather than using medicine to control their blood sugar, they use a strict diet & exercise.
I'm a type II diabetic, and when I saw my doctor with a good A1c (5.8), she said, "Another doctor wouldn't be able to tell you were diabetic looking at these numbers. But make no mistake: you can't go back to your old ways of eating, or else it'll all come back. Those days are over."
My metabolism is permanently broken. The symptoms are in remission, but I'm by no means cured.
Not an expert on this, but remission is defined as:
> a temporary diminution of the severity of disease or pain.
My understanding is that after the treatment, and while in remission, people would need to maintain a healthy lifestyle to avoid relapse. It's still early days for this treatment so I'd guess that they're being cautious with their language.
W.r.t. walking. Yes, it's a wonderful way to bring down your blood sugar. I once ate too much carbs, and my blood sugar spiked to 180 (I shouldn't let it get over 160, normal people's blood sugar rarely go over 120). I was able to bring it down 50 points, to 130, by walking vigorously for 1/2 hour.
> What about other forms of wheat products like semolina, couscous, etc? Other cereal grains?
I stay away from them, but I haven't done a rigorous study. I know that, as far as diabetes is concerned, white rice is terrible for you, and brown rice is just as bad.
In general the only carbo-foods I'm comfortable with are legumes (beans) because their carbs take longer to digest.
I have a close relative who has kidney disease and was forced to cut all salt from their diet. I cook for them (I don't mind unsalted food myself). I think I understand a thing or two about such a drastic change to one's lifestyle. It's not an easy thing. My relative was mad for everything salty - cheese, cured meats, chips, everything. But they have found the discipline to cut it all off. Unfortunately, cutting salt from one's diet doesn't bring kidney disease into remission. I don't believe anything does :/ Anyway, more power to you and all that.
That's an unusual diet, it seems. So did you calculate the weight in grams (and fractions thereof) of all nutrients humans need, or just use gut feel to work out the meal ingredients, particularly in the salad?
The claims by and around Wim Hof are often pretty absurd. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a charlatan, but there's a sliding scale and he's more to one side than the other.
I'm sure there's _some_ benefit to breathing techniques, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were at about the level of 'general exercise and wellbeing'.
Have you actually looked into it? The stuff he's doing is quite scientifically controlled/verified. He's controlling his autonomic nervous system in interesting ways, and his advanced students are doing the same thing.
Just try the breathing a few times a week. Don't do it driving or close to water. I outlined it above, takes ten minutes. You'll feel great. I have beaten back colds I have felt coming on several times with it.
As with many other aspects of holistic health, it's incredible how Western medicine has ignored verifiable scientific evidence about the wide range of health benefits one can derive from these breathing techniques.
A smattering of advice from the book:
* Breathe through your nose, NOT your mouth (except when talking).
* Breathe slowly, softly, not (necessarily) deeply. Optimal breath rate is roughly 5.5s inhale, 5.5s exhale, 5.5 breaths per minute, 5.5 L of air inhaled.
* * Many people tend to over-breathe, which has a number of detriments, including stimulating anxiety.
* As with most aspects of health, the body does best with most-of-the-time low stress (see above "Breath slowly") punctuated by short intense intervals of high stress. Wim Hof breathing is the high stress workout that exercises your breathing system and builds breath flexibility.
* Chew tough stuff, exercise your jaw. This can help build wider mouths (new bone growth!) and open up your airways.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Breath-New-Science-Lost-Art/dp/073521...