There are some Chinese students who are studying in US universities support the CN government on this event. Even though they have access to the information, they still choose not to believe it.
It doesn't surprise me. The Chinese government isn't dumb enough to say "we want to abolish the rule of law in HK", instead they say "we want to stop rapists and murderers from escaping justice".
Honestly in most places in the world, that kind of appeal to emotion is an effective way to dismantle the rule of law. It is only because the people of Hong Kong are both highly educated and distrustful of Beijing that it doesn't work on them.
And of course they’re doing in a way that’s also reasonable. The HK law isn’t about political crimes... it just happens to be an extremely slippery slope and of course China wants that incremental movement towards total control.
I never really understood how Chinese people could live under such a regime until a read a long-form book about life in China by a New Yorker journalist who lived and reported from the for many years:
It's really hard to grasp how effective information control, combined with 20-30% of the population being "party members", and other means of control can completely convince (or more likely blind) the population from external realities.
It's hard because you can see how smart and capable Chinese-Americans (or Canadians, or whatever) are at anything they set their mind to, where it almost seems like something is missing in their culture vs the West.
The general lesser educated and poor swath is easier to understand how they can be lied to and believe. The key is the smarter-than-average Chinese who do end up getting access to outside information are thoroughly convinced by the state early on that 'western propaganda is merely constantly trying to denigrate China's great, big, neverending achievements. But not only that, they amplify all of the negative things the western countries do poorly like class or race relations or other things citizens are constantly complaining about in the media, and try to pretend they are covering up those while hypocritically trying to judge Asian countries.
It's really quite a genius type of system when you look at how successful it is, which legitimate the US contributed to with all of the pysop/intelligence community stuff that they mastered. But of course it's 100x easier in a system where media and education are entirely controlled, not just partially like in the US (the Chinese aren't just dumb drones is what I'm saying but I'm not convinced the state can maintain this delusion forever).
As a native Chinese living overseas (well US, the location might matter), I could add that it’s not necessary true oversea Chinese students will wind up pro-democracy, because 1) most were having a utopian view of US and most will be disappointed/delusioned after a few years. 2) most if not all never lived in a multi race society before, so the smallest discrimination can be 10x magnified 3)Anti-China news are often mis-interpreted as Anti-Chinese, which myself still struggling to get out sometimes (e.g. “we shouldn’t do business with mainland China” look very offensive to me)
Being offended by #3 isn't really unique. The whole anti-Israel vs. anti-Semitic thing is a good example of this difficulty. Same with people being critical of long-standing American institutions -- Americans get offended. The only time people can really make it clear in their mind whom they are criticizing is when they are criticizing a particular leader, e.g. Trump, Xi, Kim Jong Un, etc. Everything else just riles people up for no reason.
simple answer: we don't have alternatives. comparing with being meddling by USA or any foreign power, I'd rather pick CCP.
No matter how well intentioned you guys are/were, I'll say it in your face: I don't trust you. here is the problem: if you were pissed off by my remark, then how could you overcome the trust issue? if you were not, how stupid I'm going to be to trust you?
honestly, I think we deserve whatever we have right now, and so do you. how about we just do business and leave the urge to 'help' other people in the world in sci-fi books?
Not from the west. You don't have to trust people, but you should be free to make up your own mind. Read what they say and decide.
In South Africa we used to have strict control over our news media. Having opened up, I'd rather read and watch what I want, make my mind up, and not get into trouble for voicing my opinion.
A free media fights corruption. If you have no corruption then you're a very special country.
Be free to make your own mind. The Chinese are making their own mind, right? So what the fuss?
The most funny part when the US or other western countries point fingers at Chinese having insufficient information of misinformation to decide for themselves, is that a significant portion of their population still believes in God, and in US specifically, people believe in Creationism.
I don't know, information is just information and can be manipulated and interpreted in both ways. Is abortion a choice of the mother, or a violation of rights of the child? Are guns tools to fight oppression or ways to kill innocent people? They're both, but each side sees the other side as heretic and intolerable.
Now, don't the Chinese people know there's corrutption in the country? Don't they know there's censorship? Don't they even joke about it? US has problems and people talk about it. China has problems and people talk about. In public. On the Internet. China is not how you think it is, no need to paint it as a monster.
> China has problems and people talk about. In public. On the Internet.
I'm sorry - but isn't that in direct contradiction to the censorship? Doesn't the censorship prevent you from talking about things that Chinese leadership thinks would reflect badly on them or the country?
> a significant portion of their population still believes in God, and in US specifically, people believe in Creationism.
They believe Creationism because the US/west offers the freedom of choice. There is no government regulation forcing you to believe in one way or the other - you choose based on your own beliefs and experience.
It's funny to make comparison between CCP and "foreign power" as CCP was originally funded by the Soviets, which is, of course, a "foreign power".
And the sad truth is that you as an individual really can't make opinions for "we" which I'd take as "Chinese people" here. The problem is that the opposite opinions to yours are getting oppressed in a unprecedented way.
Lastly, "do business" doesn't mean "cheat and take advantage", as civilized people won't call IP theft as part of "business".
I didn't expect to see such Wumao speech here (no matter you're paid or not) and really don't want to waste more time on your typical Wumao debates and tricks, so plz don't reply thx.
yes, CCP was funded by Soviets and it's not a secret. ideas always come from somewhere. according to your logic, USA would be impossible b/c all the funding fathers were brits, at the time. or, you were suggesting CCP is still under Russian influence? well, it's possible. besides, I don't support every move of CCP.
I'm pride not to use 'we' here precisely b/c I know I can't represent all Chinese. whom am I to claim to have that authority? I know whom I am, and I know I have blind spot in my view, and I happily to admit the fact. and I'll be even happier to know if there is any wrong with my logic. the question is, are you?
or, maybe you want to shield the light on the tactic about 'Red herring'?
Those students see the government mostly aligned with their interests and have benefits from a lifetime of indoctrination via a higher end public school system. Censorship is more for the less elite classes that don’t have those benefits.
Even then, if China decided not to censor anything tomorrow and just went with western-style spin, 80% of the population would basically still agree with the government. That they don’t bother is basically a hold over of old-fashioned thinking, and once the last cultural revolution era leader (Xi Jinping) retires, China’s government should modernize very quickly. That this leader has decided not to retire on schedule is very disturbing.
Like anything, the lack of competition and criticism makes the Chinese political culture susceptible to attacks and its propaganda weak and useless.
Censorship has worked a little too well, and it's become a nasty habit to break out of. That's why the biggest traitor in modern times is Fang Binxing, the father of the GFW, though he probably believed himself to be a patriot.
Lack of competition and criticism is the foundation of Western democracy too. Polemics is not a space where actual meaning has ever sprung from; yet try to find anywhere here or in media or in real life discussions that are not that shape. Binaries shape all we are. I do not feel I have enough knowledge to judge life anywhere but where I live. I live in the West; I experience extreme censorship of my ideas due to my gender, class and career choices.
Where do you live in the west? I'm in the us, I just don't see extreme censorship except for racist pandering comments. Don't like the president, or cell phones, or capitalism, all good. Don't like poor people, no one will try to stop you. Only if you make racist, sexist, or gay bashing comments will people try to stop you from speaking. I haven't lived in China but I see the value in people being free to ask questions, read what they want, and not be worried about being kidnapped in the night and taken to prison - those seem pretty safe as universal rights to me.
> Only if you make racist, sexist, or gay bashing comments will people try to stop you from speaking.
Beware of conflating "the ideas you express suck and we want nothing to do with you" (on either a social or an economic basis) with "you can't speak". There's a very large difference and the people who are speaking in the way you describe are absolutely begging (shout outs to Laura Loomer) to be thought of as "persecuted by the normies".
I live in Canada. I have a graduate degree in Equity stuides and have spent my life writing and working to fight racism, sexism and homophobia. It's death by a thousand cuts in the West. I am currently in St. Petersburg Russia on an art project and it is so much more open and nuturing to new ideas than Toronto ever was. On the contrary, not liking capitalism and supporting poor people comes with a very high social cost.
Living somewhere, and contextualizing geopoltics and the difference between a citystate like St. Petersburg and a nation state (Russia), is highly recommended before concluding from afar. Though, it is certainly the mindset of our culture to do so.
Well, sure. One of the most interesting questions is whether there really is a universal human desire for liberty and democracy or whether that’s just an arbitrary cultural norm of the West. Different cultures can have different preferences and values; part of the whole reason for controlling the flow of information is to control the flow of those values.
