You know the problem with simple analogies, they're simple, the world isn't.
> I didn't say anything about benefits. I was talking about money.
Of course you didn't because you think it's about money, but it isn't. So lets complicate your analogy a bit.
> 10 people are on a deserted island, and there are tasks to be done to survive, which is fish, collect coconuts and fresh water. If 5 people are collecting coconuts, fish and fresh water, and sharing it to the other 5, then it doesn't matter what the other 5 are doing.
It most certainly does matter because reality isn't that simple. If the other 5 people, in exchange for those fish, coconuts, and fresh water, also provide in exchange other necessary services to those workers such as medical care, law enforcement, and education then they most certainly are not parasites living off the backs of the productive as you wrongly imply.
It matters not whether you pay a private company via income or government via taxes if they are providing the same useful services to you; those services don't come free. The difference is a philosophical one of whether you have a choice in the matter. One half is not supporting the other, both halves are mutually supporting each other, the flow of money is irrelevant.
Your mistake is in wrongly saying the government workers are not doing anything productive or contributing in any way and that's simply not the case.
Collectivism tends to benefit the weak the most and the whole group overall while disadvantaging the strong. Individualism benefits the strong the most, benefits the collective some, and disadvantages the weak massively. As the strong are always going to be outnumbered by the average and the weak, it's only natural that any democracy tends to eventually slightly favor the collective rather than let the few dominate. But swing to far to either extreme and everything falls apart. You can't let the strong take too much or the collective rebels and you can't let the collective take too much or the strong rebel.
Redistribution of wealth through social policy maintains this balance and prevents the fall back to serfdom which is what happens when the strong get too much power/money and pass it down one generation to the next. Not taking too much and letting the individuals still accumulate a decent amount of wealth prevents the fall to communism which destroys any incentive to be productive. It's a balancing act, and it's not at all simple.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, because I'm not into endless thread debates. I'm going to restate my thoughts, feel free to disagree, but this is to clarify my position one more time. Anyone who ever stumbles across the thread in the future can make up their own mind.
" they most certainly are not parasites living off the backs of the productive as you wrongly imply"
You have projected speech onto me, probably from what you think my political views are : that's not what I said at all. In my island example, I don't doubt that the other half of the island are doing something productive, I just said that, in order for them to exist, the half collecting the food and water have to provide for them. It's not a chicken and egg situation : the first half have to be productive before the second half can share in the results. The analogy is that one half of the population is creating things, people are paying money for those things, and the other half is living off the excess value or money created. Government services are mostly by definition a net consumer of money, this is obvious otherwise the government would be self-funding by now.
Again, I'm talking about money, not benefits. Of course people benefit from government services, however, I'm talking about the measurement of GDP : which is a measurement of money, not benefits.
At least we agree that you can't just take from the people who produce endlessly and distribute it around. And I'm a big supporter of social safety nets like welfare and medical services. I just don't like to see the government becoming larger than the private sector in any economy.
> I didn't say anything about benefits. I was talking about money.
Of course you didn't because you think it's about money, but it isn't. So lets complicate your analogy a bit.
> 10 people are on a deserted island, and there are tasks to be done to survive, which is fish, collect coconuts and fresh water. If 5 people are collecting coconuts, fish and fresh water, and sharing it to the other 5, then it doesn't matter what the other 5 are doing.
It most certainly does matter because reality isn't that simple. If the other 5 people, in exchange for those fish, coconuts, and fresh water, also provide in exchange other necessary services to those workers such as medical care, law enforcement, and education then they most certainly are not parasites living off the backs of the productive as you wrongly imply.
It matters not whether you pay a private company via income or government via taxes if they are providing the same useful services to you; those services don't come free. The difference is a philosophical one of whether you have a choice in the matter. One half is not supporting the other, both halves are mutually supporting each other, the flow of money is irrelevant.
Your mistake is in wrongly saying the government workers are not doing anything productive or contributing in any way and that's simply not the case.
Collectivism tends to benefit the weak the most and the whole group overall while disadvantaging the strong. Individualism benefits the strong the most, benefits the collective some, and disadvantages the weak massively. As the strong are always going to be outnumbered by the average and the weak, it's only natural that any democracy tends to eventually slightly favor the collective rather than let the few dominate. But swing to far to either extreme and everything falls apart. You can't let the strong take too much or the collective rebels and you can't let the collective take too much or the strong rebel.
Redistribution of wealth through social policy maintains this balance and prevents the fall back to serfdom which is what happens when the strong get too much power/money and pass it down one generation to the next. Not taking too much and letting the individuals still accumulate a decent amount of wealth prevents the fall to communism which destroys any incentive to be productive. It's a balancing act, and it's not at all simple.