However, last time I looked fasthttp was great if you don't care about http2 support or streaming bodies. Unfortunately I do.

Obviously you can go much slimmer, but a $10 board is surprisingly capable.

They lacked experience in many areas. Ironically they ended up firing their only experienced executive (CTO). It's too bad, they had passionate engineers who could have built some amazing things (as evidenced imo by the amazing things they later built for Netflix/Google/Facebook/Amazon/etc) but they were stuck at a company that sort of wanted to be a tech company but didn't want any of those annoying "IT people" involved in decisions.

But of course becoming the person that recruiter reached out to involved several years of study, betting on a brand new language, taking a risk on a startup with no money and a few other things.

If you know js and web standards then anything on the frontend is just a new application of the same ideas. If you know a bit of networking and a bit of operating systems then web development in python/django/Scala are all just interesting new ways to say basically the same thing.

If you know the specs then you don't need to find out about technology by following 100 different blogs.

Occasionally there will be new fundamentals to learn but you'll be ready because you won't have a backlog of relearning framework X's new way of saying "hello, world".

This causes me to interpret statements like "Programmers tend to worry too much and too soon about performance." more charitably. I think he does care about real performance.

Holy shit. Maybe I'll stop complaining about the US plastering the names of the accused all over if this is the alternative.

So it’s actually inverted outcomes from what you described, secret is normally good, (with obvious exceptions, such as the case in point) and public is normally bad.

Yet it seems to be abused here in order to protect cozy relationships between a certain big business and the government. Whistleblowers proven correct should be held up on a pedestal and highly respected, not thrown to the wolves with little chance of future employment.

This will obviously never happen because it's far more lucrative to draw trials out for years.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatr...

Some people were working on encrypted SNI during TLS 1.3's development, so that TLS could encrypt server names sort of like how it encrypts all later traffic. Encrypted SNI didn't make it into TLS 1.3.

1. Have a big SAN cert with lots of names.

2. Use SNI to select the correct certificate for that client and route to the correct customer config (and therefore correct origin)

If SNI didn't exist we'd be back to the bad old days of every TLS site requiring a dedicated IP. As ipv4 exhaustion has gotten worse this has gotten more expensive. However if we're using ipv6 then hosting N listeners for N ip addresses, each with their own dedicated cert, is much more scalable.

What if you consider part of someone's job to be communicating concepts to people, possibly with the help of visual aids and diagrams?

I hate this concept that if it's not typing code into an editor then it's not "real work".

I absolutely communicate with my coworkers using a whiteboard and pseudocode. I reject the idea that being put on the spot is necessarily "artificial". To the contrary, I think that the number of engineering jobs where you can assume you'll never be put on the spot or have to communicate complex ideas verbally or visually is relatively low.

Now if this particular skill isn't interesting to an employer and they'd rather spend the time talking about some other candidate capability, that's a whole different story.

Whiteboard interviews rarely test the ability to communicate on a whiteboard because the interviewer knows the answer they are looking for and the presenter does not.

If you defend whiteboard leetcode using this excuse you are deluding yourself and you are part of the problem. The only thing the modern FANG interview hires for is people that can solve algorithms problems in a silo under pressure. No checks for software engineering skills, collaboration skills, testing skills, reviewing skills, and on and on...

The whiteboard interview is why so many engineers unexpectedly suck.

They you are asking the wrong questions. I use whiteboard for developers, and for junior developers I give them a simple task such as reverse an array, turn a string into a palindrome (and explain what it is if they don't know). If they want to be a developer they must be able to solve those simple tasks. I don't really care how, as long as they think loud. Then I use it as a starting point for enhancement discussions, perhaps stack/heap questions, recursion, assignments ect. During all this I coach them, teach unknown concepts in simple terms - this is what they can expect when they ask their mentor a question so in that sense they get a feel for us too.

Some argue that it's still not good, and that we're filtering out people that work best alone. That is true, but that is by design. We work as a team, having 10 individual developers not working together unless forced is an architectural nightmare.

I'm not asking them to impelment van Emde Boas tree because I spend countless of hours implementing and analyzing it getting my degree. I ask them to turn a string into a palindrome, or return the sum of all even index in an array of ints, ect. They're free to ask all the questions they like. It's a litmus test to see if they know simple programming, akin to seeing if a contractor knows how to drive in a nail using a hammer.

Is it high pressure while your future career is on the line? Absolutely, but they are not special snowflakes, and it's the case for any interview for any kind of position. I'm not going to throw thousands of dollars after someone just to figure out that they have in fact never written a functioning for loop.

The reason many engineers unexpectedly suck is because it’s a high paying job where performance is difficult to measure let alone predict.

White boarding interviews are a symptom of the problem, not the cause of it.

If the interviewer leaves frustrated because they couldn't solve anything and it was a mess, or the question was formulated terribly, or the interviewee was under prepared, etc etc, then it provides a lot of insight into the capabilities of the interviewee. It almost provides more insight into the qualities required of a developer than just putting them on the spot.

I think it's safe to say that being put on the spot in front of people you don't know who are judging you is quite different from being put on the spot in a team meeting with someone from product who will watch your demo of a potential new project/idea/concept.

We've never rejected somebody for having a "bad" answer, because they were able to at least talk about what they're doing. We have had people flat out refuse to even try, and that seems like a pretty big red flag.

So it seems to me entirely reasonable to still be nervous.

Mind you, I don't have a better answer, but I don't think just explaining that suboptimal is ok and it's a discussion really helps.

Picking on whiteboard code for not compiling is not good interview technique. But it's also a common enough failing that it's hard to say a bad interviewer in that regard means a bad workspace, unfortunately.

(And yeah, the pay makes a difference. Not a lot of places where you can make a few hundred thousand dollars a year.)

(I’m making a distinction between the idea that a job “is fine” where one “is happy” merely because the culture is at least not worse than elsewhere while the pay is better vs actually feeling positively about one’s company’s culture and corporate behavior.

For example, my friends who work at Facebook are “happy” with their jobs, mostly because of pay and because they know if they switch to other companies, politics, corporate misbehavior, etc., will just continue. But these same people tell me frequently how sad, upset, soulless, disappointed they regularly feel because of their employer.

That feeling I think is extremely widespread in tech, almost all employers. That’s the only part in my viewpoint that matters for whether someone “is happy” at their job, and it’s that type of bad culture I think can be easily flagged by little stuff, like bad whiteboard interviews.)

Nobody has any idea what’s going on; nobody has clarity. And when someone does have clarity, middle management is only interested if they can set it up like a battery to harvest credit from. If they can’t, their incentives are usually more aligned with intentionally abusing process to “manage out” innovative people.

the one thing i'd add is that i do take particularly thoughtful / empathetic interview processes, interviewers who actually know and understand the question (rarer than you'd think), etc. as a fairly strong signal, as those sorts of things don't just happen by chance-- they are the byproduct of a culture of thoughtfulness (and thoughtful people tend to be thoughtful about most things).

Ya I did not get that job lol.

Also, generally, if I'm whiteboarding in front of my coworkers/team/etc. I'm discussing something I've thought about for more than the few moments I have to digest the question while standing at the board during an interview.

> Can we assume I know how to do argument checking?

I would probably question you at some point about a particular value of an argument and almost all candidates will get points for thinking out load that of course a NULL would get it crashing and that a simple check could stop it. Then it leads to discussion about how it should be handled. Sometimes a NULL means the program should cast an exception, other times it should just return without any side effect.

IMO the hate for whiteboard questions is really a symptom of poor interview technique.

Granted, I will give you that optimized code has definitely been important. One of those interviews even had me use a bit array (at least I think it was that) to efficiently a store a list of booleans but at least they gave me the relevant function calls to use an already implemented one.

Right. And a competency based interview goes better if you have a perfect example for every question. But it isn't an auto-fail if some of your answers are mediocre

Personally though - I'd rather hire someone who is able to properly communicate their thought process over an imperfect solution, than someone who was unable to discuss/explain the perfect solution they scrawled down.

When I give interviews candidates often say they don't remember some API. I tell them I don't care and they should make something up and I'll figure out what they are doing from context. The only time this burns candidates is when they clearly don't understand an ADT well enough to give it a sane interface.

In my most recent on-site interviews, my interview would be in a room with full floor to ceiling glass windows, the next interviewer would come in, ask one or two personal questions, and then either cut me off after a couple minutes or just simply say "we're going to move on to the whiteboard now, do this". Meanwhile people are walking by staring into the room, looking at the whiteboard, etc.

Which is just too rigid, IMO.

When I interview a candidate, I want to know that they'll be able to work together with myself and my current teammates as a team. So I would rather do something similar to what you described.

Fizz-buzz tests have their place, but I think an onsite interview is past that point. In general I have found that white board exercises don't allow me to either understand or convey how I can apply my expertise to provide value for the organization.

I've had my share of the second kind, which were without exception some of the most unpleasant interviews I've ever gone on.

Except at the end of the day this is an interview, you are judging their answers and evaluating their performance. I have been part of white boarding sessions like this and it does not reduce anxiety and still feels completely removed from what I actually do on a daily basis.

We at least on a weekly basis somebody has some small problem they need help working through, it generally ends up being diagraming or pseudo-coding to figure out the best approach. If somebody can only participate by hiding in a corner typing out code, then the process worked for both sides.

If only all interviewers were like you.

I’ve interviewed at Facebook as well and although the interview was not successful I have never been nitpicked about syntax and compilabiltiy/runnability of my whiteboard solutions. I came off with a very healthy appreciation of the way they try to engage the candidate and reduce stress.

I highly doubt a normal engineer is going to be giving a demo to their team with high stakes in the first three or so months. I understand if they're possibly a senior engineer, architect, or lead of some sort because they were probably hired with a plan to spearhead a specific project.

I'd say in the average case a new engineer will have enough time to at least break the ice with their new team before being put into a high pressure situation.

Nope. There was a great submission a few years ago about a guy who applied to two categories of jobs: management and software development.

In the SD roles, everything was oriented toward rejecting him. Any possible "red flag".

In the management roles, the interview was focused on finding areas where he could contribute to the company.

Whiteboard interviews are a problem in and of themselves, and the propagate terrible attitudes into the rest of the interviewing process.

If communicating ideas is part of your job, I'd bet any amount that you decide what ideas you want to communicate well before you do the actual presentation (or other physical delivery of the ideas).

When I get hired this way, I always feel a little bit of guilt because I know they actually hired somebody else.

What can be done? I’m not sure, but I can say one thing: my level of discomfort is multiplied by the number of strangers in the room. Does this ever get considered with interviews?

I am far more comfortable coding in front of 1 or 2 people who each give me a little bit of background about their coding experience; just so I know. If they are experienced engineers, it’s probably not going to change what I say aloud, but it just makes me more comfortable. I guess more overlap of technologies in our background does help. It’s nice to not feel pressure of worrying if my solutions reflect general programming conventions enough to be language agnostic. I have never really used Java, for example.

If you want to test communication skills amongst programmers, I dunno...ask them to write something in coherent English. Or here's a crazy thought: ask them to document some code. I guarantee that 80% of working "rockstar coders" will fail (but not before whining, crankily, about how unfair it is that you would actually make them do such a useless thing, since, y'know...never actually documents anything IRL, dude).

Programmers like whiteboarding because it lets them believe that interviews can be reduced to purely objective functions, and because GooAmaSoftBook does it. They're too scared to deviate from the pack, lest people think they aren't as "elite" as everyone else.

I feel like we're probably at an impasse if I can't convince you that a whiteboard is a decent medium to communicate ideas around datastructures and algorithms, but I appreciate your point of view.

I can only say my experience, which I hope you will take into account as one anecdote. I don't read books about "cracking the coding interview" or do leetcode or hackerrank. I left school 14 years ago or so my stash of cs trivia/secrets/gotcha isn't particularly full. I've done whiteboard interviews where I come up with at best a naive solution.

And yet I've received offers for fairly senior engineering positions at Amazon and Twitter and (hopefully tomorrow) from Google. Most of the whiteboard interview isn't even around the code, although that's a small part. Most of it is analyzing the problem, discussing constraints, discussing tradeoffs, walking through data structure manipulations, drawing arrows and boxes, that kind of stuff. Some code, maybe 30% of the interview. I just keep having this experience where nobody wants to play the gotcha game, they want to know how well I can communicate while solving a problem and they think they get that information out of the interview (I agree with them).

That experience makes it hard for me to understand a viewpoint that believes that whiteboard interviews are about memorizing secrets in advance.

Every set of interview prep material I've seen from Facebook, Amazon and Google recruiters asking me to interview in the last 3 months has included links to things suggesting "cracking the coding interview" is a good start and pointing to similar docs otherwise.

Are you sure you're not just replacing one stereotype with another here? Do you think it's fair to say that 80% of people who do well at whiteboard coding value documenting their software so little that they'd be fail at it while disparaging the concept?

There seems to be a bunch of ingenuous assertions here that is characteristic of someone who doesn't think one should have to prove oneself. I'm at a FAANG and we don't even ask anything crazy hard for algorithms/data structures like Google or Facebook does, but our interviews still manage to be intense for technical and soft skills - they will challenge even strong candidates and one cannot pass the interview without displaying strong technical acumen or communication skills.

There is so much more to technical assessment than just coding. A whiteboard is just a standard medium for communicating ideas in a collaborative manner that still works the best for any sort of deep collaborative design when compared to any other medium so far.

Think how much you might actually learn about a candidate if your interview process replaced a day of solid whiteboarding with a code review, some pair programming, a session of documenting someone else's code, behavioral interviews, etc. It's almost as if you'd be treating them like a...person!

I think the complaint that programmers pretty much never have to think about code under pressure is a fair criticism. The whiteboard really puts you on the spot. But if it's your company and your hiring managers are playing a game of gotcha on the whiteboard, you need better interviewers.

Whiteboard coding interviews are one thing that I have to go out of my way to practice for and get better at over time when interviewing (ie over the course of a few failed interviews). I don’t feel more skilled or smarter by the end of the set of interviews, but I inevitably do better at these kinds of problems. Should the interview be testing my competency at day-to-day work skills or how well I’ve practiced my interview skills, because whiteboard coding problems only achieve the latter.

I do coding interviews in the following manner: I select an interesting problem from a book. I personally complete the problem, measuring what was challenging and the time it took for me to complete the problem. I check the textbook solution, making notes of how my solution differs from the textbook's. If I like the problem, and if it fits with the development role, I invite the candidate to bring a development laptop, I give them a hard time limit of twice the time it took me to complete it, and have them share their screen while they attempt to complete it.

Afterwards we test their solution, I ask them some questions about it. I grade based on code taste, the number of hints they need, and their completion time. All candidates for a position are given the same question. Performance in coding interview is about two third's of the overall candidate evaluation. The ability to sit down and write good code in a time constraint manner is a very important part of being a developer.

First, your definition of "interesting problem" probably includes a lot of personal biases. What you find interesting probably touches stuff you've had experience with, but just because you've done work on say, customized implementations of binary search, doesn't mean it's a good baseline for all developers everywhere. Maybe they've worked on different domains or solved different problems and can't relate to questions you personally find "interesting".

It'd be much fairer to select a boring question that involves standard stuff that everyone has to face at some point in their careers, like string manipulation. And even then, it just involve normal transformations ('look for and remove special characters') and not wacky, HackerRank-style rules ('no two bs after cs but before as').

On the other hand, I think there needs to be some proxy for "how well does the interviewee navigate complexity?" Because a programmer who does it well is far more valuable than a programmer who doesn't, and there's high variance on this between programmers and between fields of expertise.

The systems design interview sort of gets at it, and whiteboard interviewing often tries to get at it. I feel like I've yet to settle on an approach I'm happy with.

You have a good point, I noticed this about myself as well. However, I don't think whiteboard interviews are special in that regard. I noticed that I got noticeably better at the "sit down and code me a simple web API endpoint" interview, and I got noticeably better at the systems design interview, and so on.

I do think that whiteboard interviews tend to lean very algorithm-heavy, which doesn't reflect the role's actual day to day. And practicing algorithm interviews really does feel like an inefficient use of time unless your role truly demands algorithmic proficiency (like if you're a graphics dev).

which also means the team might consist of people selected by using this metric. this is a good signal ;-)

It's not; I couldn't agree more.

In real life when using engineering "skill", not only am I not anxious/stressed by trying to write on a whiteboard, but I'm using my laptop, with my editor, as well as access to man pages, docs, and google to look things up.

In addition to the overemphasis of performance responses, I think "how much do you know from memory with 10 seconds of thinking" vs "how much do you know with 10 seconds of google" is useless. The only fairly complex datastructures I can perfectly describe from memory are the ones which I used most recently...

Perhaps it would be more effective to have the candidate whiteboard a concept that they are already familiar with, be it a high-level engineering principle or a system/solution they have built in the past. Attempting to solve a problem you have just been presented with AND communicating the solution effectively is a big ask.

I know my opinion is unpopular, but I sometimes do think I've figured out something other people miss. I think when it comes to whiteboard inteviews, candidates are often playing the wrong game. They think it's about gotcha questions and they think they fail because they didn't leetcode hard enough. I don't think that's true, they are just trying to game the thing that's easy to measure.

In my experience with the "terrible" FANG companies, it's not about gotcha questions. I get the offers even though I don't often find a non-naive solution. The people I'm in the room with really do want to see my thought process and they really do want me to communicate the tradeoffs with them. People don't fail the gotcha questions because they don't know trivia or because they forgot a detail from their CS classes. They fail the whiteboard interview because they see an unfamiliar question and say: "I don't know that trivia" instead of drawing out possible solutions and having a conversation with their interviewers.

But ... if you read some of the feedback from interviewers at "those companies" that rely on these interviews, they say the reason they failed someone is exactly because they "didn't leetcode hard enough". It is manifested as:

"Well other candidates got the same solution as you, they just did it 10 minutes faster"

or

"You missed an edge case, even though your core algorithm was correct".

This is a huge issue with these interviews. It's all too easy for interviewers to evaluate candidates based on how fast, correct, neat or "complete" you answer was. It's easy and takes no time.

That may have been a reason why I have failed some interviews but I feel like most interviewers are actually good about this and will say something along the lines of "what about this input?" where my code does not work and then I have that "oh shit, that won't work for that" and then I fix it.

I'm inclined to describe it as a sort of interrogation technique, you're offering a stimulus (the problem) and aggregating a number of reactions to form an opinion, and open up new lines of questioning. Very delicate work.

I think problems arise when unskilled interviewers present an excessively obtuse problem to the candidate, then read far too much into their responses (this approach is also easily "hacked" by those who've memorised common problems of this ilk). To stick with my interrogation analogy, it's the equivalent of screaming in the suspect's face, noticing that they gulp before shifting in their seat and scratching their face, then deciding that "they must be lying".

If you can't give me good examples from your past, I'm going to throw my own questions at you. I tend not to do coding on the whiteboard, though. Lots more boxes and lines and schema and system interaction-y stuff.

thinking and presenting are two separate skills, and, in my opinion, can rarely be executed at the same time.

What you're testing is the ability to discuss a problem with your peers. That is the critical thing.

Do the whiteboard but don't make the coding the standard. Don't get too hung up on the details of the problem.

Make the problem easy but fuzzily specified.

Clear and respectful communication is one of the most important skills for an engineer to have.

If you read the second half of my answer in the article I go into the communication side of things. In my experience there are better ways to evaluate a candidate's emotional intelligence and social skills than asking them to code in front of someone.

I've written code on white boards at work, and I've discussed about code on white board with colleagues or managers. It's not the same thing as during interviews. The schedule is never as tight, scrutiny is way laxer and the overall mood is completely different when I'm working with colleagues or even bosses.

I kind of understand why the BigCo's do it (they need a super rigid filter since they have so many candidates), but in their case they could select for people with the best pink leotard on interview day and they'd still get decent programmers, because their companies are in such high demand and they generally already control their markets (software, natural monopolies, etc.) and can afford to pay a ton so the competition would be cutthroat anyway.

In that case I would recommend reading the candidate's resume beforehand, look for prior experience publishing, presenting, or teaching and ask them about it.

Do write lots of sequence diagrams, block diagrams, ui sketches, arch diagrams and very occasionally someone might draw a data structure.

Whiteboard interviews where the interviewer says "it's actually `.toLowerCase()`, not `.lowerCase()`, you fool!", or "oops! You forgot to `position: relative;` the containing element that you `position: absolute;`d below!". you're not testing anything useful. Maybe if we were still coding everything on punchcards and using massive user manuals, but docking applicants for things their editor would highlight or one ctrl-r on the page would find is ridiculous.

This is incredibly common, and you tell the candidate in advance that they will be expected to give an n-minute presentation on a subject of their choosing (need not even be tech) so they can prepare.

Tell me this: when did a mob last ambush you at your desk and demand that you invert a red-black tree on a whiteboard that they happen to have with them right now? I'm guessing that never happens where you work. If it does then fair enough :-)

Ironically this leads to min- maxxers who ignore a good chunk of their courses simply to master leetcode. My smartest peers are ones who work on interesting projects and research, thus never finding time to grind interview questions.

Then there are also companies that expect your white board code to compile and have perfect syntax, which imo is very unreasonable.