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are you familiar with how negligible a fraction of the costs that car-dependent infrastructure imposes on society those two taxes represent

build. more. and this problem will go away.

this sounds nice, but neglects the fact that (1) materials cost has gone up and (2) zoning requirements exist. (1) means its just more expensive to build overall, and (2) means that a lot of proposals for apartment complexes get voted down.

I'm not neglecting those facts. 2) is almost the entirety of the problem. the call to action of "build more" is not wishful thinking that someone will donate free houses to the public. the call to action is to vote for politicians who will remove the near-universal smothering red tape that prevents any kind of meaningful new housing construction

Part of building more is getting government (mostly) out of it so that things like zoning laws don't hamper new development. Obviously that is very hard to do at a local level when incumbent homeowners' housing values would be cut in half overnight.

Actual NIMBY/YIMBY fights look like one level of government representing a lot of people who can't afford a primary residence fighting against a different level of government representing a lot of incumbent primary residence owners who are concerned on a personal level about the negative externalities of more people being able to live in their neighborhood. Government is happening no matter what.

This is happening in california. In fact there are three current situations: 1/SB9 cutting R1 lots in half 2/ ADU laws, which let you build up to 3 homes/units where there was one and further, can be combined with SB 9 3/ AB2011 which lets you turn defunct strip malls into housing

Honestly, this plus things like PermitFlow make me feel like we will be able to build enough. The issue will be making sure the housing is affordable rather than expensive and empty.


Well duh because "just make everyone underwater on their mortgage" is a bit of a silly solution that definitely won't have any second order effects.

You're not wrong. There are multiple aspects of government involvement that require untangling which includes federally backed mortgages that allow banks to be more lax on loan terms (which is how we got 30 year loans and Trump proposing a 50 year)

>this sounds nice, but neglects the fact that (1) materials cost has gone up

That's a red herring because most of the price increase comes from increase in land prices.

https://www.aei.org/housing/land-price-indicators/


can you please explain how these graphics are supposed to support your argument? it's not clear to me and i'm trying to understand the georgist POV.

nonetheless, materials and the cost of labor are the most significant costs for new buildings. not land, taxes, or zoning regulations. here is one example where this is a fact: www.vermontpublic.org/local-news/2024-05-23/uvm-halts-student-housing-project-construction-costs-workforce-shortage


Switch from "national level" tab to "metro level", and select los angeles for an extreme example. Look at the the figures right of the map, that says "share of SFD units build before 1980 with a land share of" and compare the figures between 2012 and 2024. Just by eyeballing the percentages, it looks like the land share went from 50-60% to 70-80%. This is confirmed if you sum up the figures in a spreadsheet, you go from an average share of 51% to 72%.

You can compare this to overall housing prices in the LA area[1], prices in 2024 is 262.7% of 2012 prices. Suppose you have a $100k house in 2012, that will worth $262k in 2024, an appreciation of $162k. Using the land value percentages above, the land value of the houses are $51k and $188k respectively, an appreciation of $137k. That means 85% of the appreciation was in land, not because building materials got more expensive or whatever.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LXXRSA


interesting. what about a timeframe that doesn't occur with a period of extremely low interest rates like your 2012 - 2024 time range?

also neglects the market's appetite for this risk of building in the current environment, which is the biggest problem. market gonna act like a market

market has plenty of appetite but it's muzzled by selfish and short-sighted NIMBYs

exactly wrong based on my argument. did NIMBYs cause the dramatic drop in building after the great financial crisis? (no)

Supply constraints are a symptom of the problem, which is housing is a huge leveraged investment for many. You generally won’t get policies for building more when it negatively affects the finances of a majority of voters

Not if private equity just snatches it all up.

Yes build more. Also regulate the oligarchs until they no longer exist.


> Not if private equity just snatches it all up

"As of December 2022, the five largest investors owned about 300,000 homes — just under 2% of single-family rental homes nationally."

Where institutions dominate is in rentals: "institutional investors own roughly 2% to 25% of single-family rentals in major markets" [1];.

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/planet-money/2025/09/09/g-s1-87...


PE buying real estate is a long bet on housing prices. If supply increases enough, prices flatten out and then fall, and the longs get crushed.

These investments are a bet on continuing to under-build and under-densify.


its a good bet on their part (although i hate it). we obviously can't increase supply fast enough to keep up with demand in the current regulatory climate and with an existing shortage of skilled tradesmen and ratio of tradesman retiring out vs newcomers entering construction, there doesn't seem to be a feasible way to meaningfully increase supply.

If they buy out all the supply, there will always be a shortage.

So build so much they cannot rent all of it. Over supply will eventually drive down prices.

who is going to do the building? Because PE is the one doing that too.

No, private equity appears to be a minority of home builders: https://www.builderonline.com/builder-100/builder-100-list/2...

Sounds like trickle down housing to me.

Me: "should we stop allowing private equity to hold property?"

My Strawman: "nah let's build more houses to be snatched up by private equity, that way eventually maybe they'll be really nice and decide to lower prices for us someday due to the infallible balance of supply and demand that definitely hasn't been rigged to hell over the past half century. They certainly won't just continue to rig the system to benefit themselves"


>to the infallible balance of supply and demand that definitely hasn't been rigged to hell over the past half century

How has "supply and demand" been "rigged"? A lack of supply isn't evidence of "supply and demand" being "rigged", it's it working exactly as predicted, not any different than oil prices going up when there's some geopolitical event threatening supply.


The area I live in has homes that remain empty because the investor doesn't need the capital nor the space and just holds empty units for multiple years when they eventually sell (for even more than they would have sold in the past).

Housing demand will always be > 0 as long as population is growing and hence there can never be a oversupply.


In areas where there is demand without risk.

anybody making excuses for this or pretending it's "business as normal" is evil.

\thread.

Nothing more needs to be said. Nothing more needs to be debated. This is evil, pure and simple.


the more competitive, orderly, and fair market, the more efficient the outcome

that is _not_ synonymous with "absent of regulation."

market failures exist, believe it or not.


very clever! I hadn't seen anybody make this point before in any of these threads /s

obviously the nature of OpenAIs revenue is very different than selling $1 for $0.2 because their customers are buying an actual service, not anything with resale value or obviously fungible for $


FWIW the selling $1 for $0.2 is widely applied to any business that is selling goods below cost.

For example: free shipping at Amazon does not have resale value and is not obviously fungible, but everyone understands they are eating a cost that otherwise would be borne by their customers. The suggestion is that OpenAI is doing similar, though it is harder to tease out because their books are opaque.


Can you explain why Amazon eats the cost of shipping? Are they like the "First CityWide Change Bank"? How do they make money? Answer: Volume.

They don't eat all of it anymore, even for Prime members. To the extent they do, it's largely to reduce friction for what is still a purchase that will generally take longer to arrive than going to the store. Plus, it's a nice perk that makes you feel like you're getting a deal.

As for profits, I haven't looked recently, but IIRC profits are mostly:

1. AWS

2. Prime membership fees

The latter drives loyalty and therefore volume and predictability, which allows Amazon to e.g. operate their own mini-UPS in the quest to make money on most parcels. They also rolled back free shipping on everything over the years and use it more surgically and with minimum order sizes.


They're not selling a service, they're selling access to a service. You can access a more or less equivalent service from multiple companies.

The value of an LLM isn't an LLM. That's entirely 100% fungible. The value is exclusively what it produces.

If other people can produce the same thing, your LLM value approaches 0.


They sell a product, not a model. ChatGPT is a product, GPT5 is a technology.

If you hope that ChatGPT will be worthless because the underlying technology will commodify, then you are naive and will be disappointed.

If that logic made sense, why has it never happened before? Servers and computers have been commodified for decades! Salesforce is just a database, social media is just a relational database, Uber is just a GPS wrapper, AWS is just a server.

People pay money, setup subscriptions, and download apps to solve a problem, and once they solve that problem they rarely switch. ChatGPT is the fifth most visited website in the world! Facebook and Deepseek making opensource models means you can make your own ChatGPT, just like you can make your own Google, and nobody will use it, just like nobody uses the dozens of “better” search engines out there.


The underlying technology already is commodified - there are many, many other models that are extremely competitive.

The problem is: suppose Google has an equivalent model (they do, but if you disagree, just pretend). Suppose they do. What then is OpenAI offering that makes its product more intriguing? Nothing. They have a chat interface. An intern can make a chat interface.

> ChatGPT is the fifth most visited website in the world!

To me, this is absolutely worthless information. That DOES NOT mean that ChatGPT is in the clear and nobody else will overtake them.

Your analogies really paint the picture here aptly. Salesforce is not just a database, it's a lot of stuff on top of it. AWS is not just a server, it's a lot of stuff on top of it. Uber is not just a GPS wrapper, it's a taxi service. That's a different thing.

ChatGPT... is just a model. What they add on top approaches zero. Because that's just how the technology works. It takes text and gives it to a model and then spits out the output. What more can you add onto that system, removing the model? Make it easier to input text? Make it easier to get output? Well that's truly trivial to do, and I would argue ChatGPT isn't even in the top 10 when it comes to that. Today.


ChatGPT is not a model, it is a product. My credit card charges me for ChatGPT, not GPT5. Products have moats because once you solve the problem and become a habit, consumers never switch. Nobody switches from Google, nobody switches from Instagram, nobody switches from AWS to whatever godforsaken hertzner self hosted solution hackernews says is cheaper than the cloud.

Nobody wants the same thing but cheaper, or the same thing but marginally better. You either solve the problem first, or you lose. The first site to ever threaten the dominance of google.com is chatgpt.com! Why? Because it’s NOT just “google but better”, it’s an entirely new thing.

> To me, this is absolutely worthless information. That DOES NOT mean that ChatGPT is in the clear and nobody else will overtake them

Do you think chatgpt.com will be worse the 5th most visited website 5 years from now? I’ll gladly take that bet, let’s do $100, i’ll even give you 2:1 odds. Do you think openAI will be bankrupt in <10 years? Let’s bet $1000, hell I’ll give you 10:1 odds.

Chatgpt.com alone is clearly at least as valuable as instagram.com, soon to be as valuable as google.com, and long term more than either.


> It's a bit like keeping rents high and apartments empty to build average rents

with very particular exceptions at the high end (like those 8-figure $ apartments by Central Park that are little more than international money laundering schemes) this doesn't really happen irl


It does happen, in bad times apartments go empty rather than rents getting lowered, that is to ensure rents stay high.

This does not happen, if you forgo one month of rent you have to have kept prices up significantly to make up for the loss. The only reason this could happen is if your loan terms are pegged to rent roll (usually only on commercial properties).

an example: $5000/mo apartment generates $60,000 a year; forgoing one month of rent means you have to now generate $60,000 of revenue in 11 months, which in a bad market will likely not rent for $5450 if it didn't rent for $5000. Your mortgage still continues to pile up along with insurance and taxes, so you can't escape the hole.


car-dependent infrastructure and urban design is hostile to human life.

Car depend infrastructure is amazing to families. A mom can take her children to the grocery store in a car in relative safety without worrying about mentally ill homeless people on the subway.

Why would you need to get on the subway to go to the grocery store? When I lived in Paris I was within a five minute walk to at least three general grocery stores plus various speciality shops. Always plenty of parents all around. This is not uncommon in properly designed non-car dependent cities. Not to mention deliveries are just that much easier and all without a car.

In more than a decade living in Stockholm never had a mentally ill homeless person bothering anyone in the subway.

Perhaps the subway itself isn't the problem...


Men would rather build a continent-sized car-dependent infrastructure that deal with mentally ill homeless people on the subway...

It is called the American way.

yeah but i can make money selling comically oversized trucks and suvs to fatass americans

fixing homelessness doesn't make me money


Correct. Lack of accessibility is a feature when you live around bad people and the legal system doesn't function to eliminate the threat

The radio said 'No, John. You are the bad people.'

Surely the priority should be to help those with mental issues and those without homes? It's bizarre to want to live in a society that prioritises car use so that people don't have to see those discarded by the same society.

wow. this thread is microcosm of how wild and polarised the internet can be.

It's pure facts. I used to live in a city where me and my wife were terrorized by homeless people on the light rail. Now we live far away from public transportation and no longer have to worry about the safety of ourselves or our children and our neighbors are fantastic people.

Car dependency and castle doctrine is essential in a low trust society with a legal system that puts violent offenders right back on the street.


Moving in a private vehicle is statistically the most dangerous activity an otherwise healthy young person routinely participates in. Your family is almost certainly at higher risk of death and serious injury now because you based this decision on your perception of safety rather than evaluating the reality of it. Speaking of "pure facts."

I have more than 200,000 miles accident free and my kids are doing fine. Living in a city with unhinged maniacs on drugs was way more dangerous.

I've been sharing needles for 20 years and I'm fine so far what's your point.

Right, except it wasn't, like objectively. Like factually. As in its not up to your opinion.

Driving is more dangerous, and it's not even close. For example, in NYC you're over 100x more likely to die in a car on the roads above the subway than on the subway.


I'm glad we understand that risk isn't evenly distributed and this also applies to driving

It does, but not much. When you drive, your life is in thousands of people's hands.

Only the most naive of the naive can believe being a safe driver means they won't die in a car wreck.


you are not correctly evaluating the risks you take by driving. it wasn't more dangerous. but ok.

[flagged]


Please avoid personal swipes like this on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


A mom can also take her car in a non-car-dependent infrastructure.

... "both sides" ? seems pretty heavily one sided to me.


I mean it's been pretty obvious for a while...

the people who would care already knew about this. the people who didn't know about this don't care (or are in denial).


maybe they'll have a life where their rights and independence aren't constantly under attack by 30% of the country.


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