Yes, recidivism rates are very high indeed. And I am proof of it, having done time in two countries (US and Mexico) and two states (Arizona and California) for a total of 19 years of my life. But just as I am a statistical number of those that return to prison, I am a statistical number for those that get out and stay out. I have been working as a software developer for the last 20 years and make a comfortable living from the career I chose. But my story would have been very different if I had never been given a chance to work and prove my worth. Thankfully, someone was willing to take a chance by hiring me. I’ve been free for the last 22 years, married for the last 20, father of a beautiful daughter, and grandfather to an adorable girl.
I spent 19 years of my life incarcerated. My life of crime started when my family moved to East Los Angeles and I decided to become a gang member at the age of 15. My last stint in prison was fourteen years straight; having been sentenced to 21 years but was granted parole on my first parole hearing. During my prison time, I enrolled in educational activities and got my GED, an Associate of Arts degree with honors, and later a degree in Computer Information Systems. Needless to say, that it took me time to adjust to a completely different type of life on the outside than the one I had been accustomed to. More than once I had the experience of being rejected, and of job offers being withdrawn, because of my criminal history. For the last 20 years, I have been working as a software developer and make a good living thanks to the career I chose while in prison. I hope more companies have the courage to take a chance on others such as myself that have paid their debt to society and are trying to live a normal life. Kudos to Slack and all the companies that believe in giving people a second chance.
Thanks for sharing your story. It really makes me angry to hear about the countless obstacles the formerly incarcerated face when it comes to reintegrating into society. As you put it, the debt to society has been paid. Someone who makes a mistake when they're young and stupid -- I know I made my share -- shouldn't be prevented from ever being able to have a good, normal life.
It is unfortunate that, although sentenced with finite punishments, ex-cons continue to be punished (i.e. judged, discriminated against) well after their sentence is over.
That said, I can also understand why companies avoid ex-cons. Companies make decisions based on statistics. A company will, ceterus paribus, always choose the candidate who has no criminal history because that candidate is less likely to commit a crime and hurt the company.
Allow companies to pay felons less for the same job, at least for some finite period of time, to compensate for that risk. Otherwise, as you say, it makes sense for them to hire people without a criminal record, other things being equal.
The truth of the matter is that us felons do work for less – at least I did – mostly because we have no choice. We are also less likely to be promoted. Three times I had job offers withdrawn because of my criminal past. Having much more to lose than someone without a criminal record I never considered doing anything illegal, or anything that would cast a shadow of doubt to my integrity. “Once a criminal always a criminal” is just not true. Unfortunately, too many people subscribe to the false cliché.
Most of the software companies I've worked for don't care about the relative salary cost because the all in cost and opportunity cost of a bad hire is way higher than the salary. For example, given the choice between a proven senior dev making 200k or a risky untrained dev making 70k they'd still just hire the senior dev. It's more about headcount with the big companies. They don't care about saving 40-60k in practice, from what I've seen.
"As you put it, the debt to society has been paid."
It's not so simple. A murderer or rapist may have served his term in prison but still not have made restitution to the victim or his or her family. However, it's good for felons to find work after incarceration so that they can support themselves and ideally make amends to victims.
Good point. I also find it to be an odd turn of phrase considering we spent those decades paying 70k a year or whatever to take care of them in prison. I'm going to have to start saying that my debt to society has been paid whenever I've just cost the taxpayers a great deal of money.
To that end, when we shift the problem from 1 reformed ex-con applying to 1 company to a distribution of reformed and non-reformed ex-cons applying to many companies, and consider in general how inefficient hiring practices tend to be in this field, what are some things that could be done to give these companies confidence that the person they hired won't steal from the company?
Perhaps some kind of standardized post-incarceration psychological/behavioral evaluation and certification system?
Is it possible for experienced backend developers to get into the program? I'm thinking someone like myself that has been programming in C# and would like to make a transition to frontend development.
Yep, many of the applicants have experience in some kind of technology, whether programming or something else. We actually think this sort of re-skilling is going to be very common in the future.
Something similar happened to me. I asked my boss for a raise and his response was "a kick in the ass, that ought to raise you up a little". My reply: I quit on the spot -- no two-week notice, I just left.
> My reply: I quit on the spot -- no two-week notice, I just left.
I think you might be my new hero: that's a fantastic response to a dick move. I just don't get people who treat employees like crap: it's no road to long-term success or satisfaction. Hope you managed to find something better afterwards.
My experience of being a manager and leader is that these roles, if anything, expose your own human fallibility like nothing else so there's no mileage at all in acting like a smartass to the people who work for you. A little humility goes a long way.
It's great to be able to do this but you need to have back ups first. So find a new job whilst "jokingly" suggesting to your boss you need a raise. Then you actually ask for a meeting and a raise and when he/she laughs you off as you knew they would you resign on the spot and go to your new job you had lined up.
With the hope that he/she will see their mistake and not treat the remaining employees that way.
The problem with this strategy is you can never go back.
> The problem with this strategy is you can never go back.
Reading all these stories about bad managers and stuff, do managers and employees take things personal in the US?
So if you leave for a better deal you actually will make personal problems between employer end employee?
Whenever someone under me quits for a better deal or another job that I can't match I tell them "good luck and thanks for the time you shared with us, if you change your mind, welcome back".
Same with salary negotiations, I usually ask them to give me "ammunition" that I can use against the higher-ups to get them raises, that is job offers at other companies, lists of stuff they have done and statements from other departments. Usually I manage to get them 5-10% raise but sometimes even more.
People work so much better if they are happy about their situation from what I can tell.
It isn't personal. There are situations where the manner of quitting make it unlikely that I'd want to work with you again.
If you joined, people on the team are helping get you up to speed on new tech, and you quit within two months before we even had a chance at a payoff for the work the team put in, that's off-putting because it's inconsiderate.
It's not illegal, and you have a right to it. But my team likewise has a right to work with people who are considerate of their time. And the business likewise has a right to ask me for positive value from hiring. So I'm going to pass on rehiring that guy.
Now, insta-quitting on being told that you're getting "a kick in the ass" instead of a raise is easily justified and if someone were mismanaged so egregiously previously I'd have no problem rehiring them. To be honest, no software engineer in their right mind would ever go back to a company where that was said unless it was for "fuck you money" so the situation just never arises.
Leaving for more money or a different kind of job is not a big deal. That's life and I'd expect a decent transition with work hand-offs and whatnot. No one will be upset about that.
When we hire someone there is a six months probation period where both parties can terminate the contract without any questions or obligations. This is mainly to make sure that the new members are compatible with the rest.
So when I hire I do so with the knowledge that it might not work out but they won't be blacklisted by the whole company for that reason.
If course if someone would scream at me and curse and storm out I'd likely not want to hire them again, but luckily that's never happened :)
I heard that an HR Person was mad at a previous company after I left, and claimed to my old boss I had exaggerated on my LinkedIn Profile to get the new job. I changed careers when I left to be a software developer.
Why would anyone say anything that incriminating? The reason your manager is incompetent is because his managers like him as such, else they wouldn't have promoted him.
I did exactly this once before, except I gave two week notice.
I walked into the meeting knowing I had offer in hand but wanted to give my current employer a chance to do the right thing. The manager literally giggled and told me I may have to leave to get an increase. I had saw this company let several "rock stars" walk over money so I wasn't expecting much, almost felt bad for the manager cause he knew that corporate approach was laughable
I would have left on the spot too. It’s never taken me more than three weeks after I started looking to find another job. My record is walking off a contract at lunch Monday, calling a recruiter and getting an offer from what was then a Fortune 10 (non tech) company Thursday.
Admittedly, it may take me longer to find a full time salaried job making what I make now, but I’m sure I could find a W2 contract job that pays sufficiently in a month by calling a few local recruiters that I’ve worked with.
I’m no special snowflake. Jobs are plentiful for software developers who have kept their skills in line with the local market in most major metropolitan areas.
After reading the post by Hillel Wayne I decided to read Uncle Bob's article that is mentioned in the post (http://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2017/10/04/CodeIsNotThe...). After reading both posts, and after reading most of the comments on this thread, I have to admit that my inclination is in favor of Uncle Bob. I agree with most of the points Uncle Bob made in his blog post.
Tools are not the answer. TDD is not the answer. Agile is not the answer. More programming languages are not the answer. There is no silver bullet. For me the answer is to do the best I can, with the tools I have.
Never stop learning, always strive to improve my skills. And yes, it takes discipline.
I disagree. Neither of them is saying anything is "the answer". They are merely putting emphasis on different things.
From that perspective, I would say that Uncle Bob is more wrong. It doesn't make sense to emphasise discipline before best practices. Discipline is about following through on things and avoiding short cuts. That means in order to have discipline, you first have to have a procedure you are meant to follow in the first place.
Additionally, Uncle Bob seems to look at things from the perspective: "If you're undisciplined, better tools can't make up for that." Sure.
But, IMO, Hillel's perspective is a lot more useful: "If you are disciplined, better tools will help you do better work."
I agree that neither of them is saying anything is "the answer". I read my comment and don't believe I implied it either. What I'm stating is my opinion: For me the answer is to do the best I can, with the tools I have.
Never stop learning, always strive to improve my skills. And yes, it takes discipline.
Former career criminal here. Spent 19 years of my adult life in a combination of jail and prison. Longest stint was for 14 consecutive years. Been working in IT for the last 17 years, mostly as a developer. Had a very hard time getting my foot in the door; was denied employment more than once because of my record. Not sure that my current employer is even aware that I have a record, and to be honest I have no plans to reveal that part of my life. Also, knowing that my criminal activities would have life-long consequences was never a deterrent. One thing I know for sure: I’m not what I used to be. Today I live a peaceful and productive life with my wife, enjoy the company of family and friends, and try to stay up-to-date with technology.
I think that what you are doing is a good thing an applaud you for it.
Thanks for sharing. I'm curious if you already knew the tech stuff before/while committing the crimes or did you learn all that after going through the system?
I was lucky. The department of corrections where I did my time provided community college courses. I started by getting my GED then taking basic courses such as writing, math, and social studies. I decided to major in business but changed my major later on to CIS (Computer Information Systems). Managed to accumulate two degrees while in prison: Associate degree in General Studies, and Associate of Science in CIS. The prison system started cutting down on available college courses while I was there. Like I said: I was lucky.
A for-profit prison industry has no interest in solving the problem. See school-to-prison pipeline, where pupils are incarcerated for infractions in school.
It probably depends by state. I was required to reveal I was a felon while on parole. Once I was off parole I no longer had this requirement but... I was constantly faced with the question on my job applications. My approach was always not to lie and only answer the questions asked, adding "will discuss during interview if needed". Twice I made it to the interview only to be rejected after the nature of my crimes were revealed. On two separate occasions I was offered employment, started work, and was later let go because of my felony conviction.
Happened to me too. Went straight to probation though, no prison time. Still, was given a job offer and worked for two weeks then the company asked everyone to do a background check. I was out in two days after that.
Now almost a year into my current full time job. I've been very lucky and fortunate but the threat of a background check will always look in the distance :/ will keep my chin up though.
I was the same on re-entering society. I went ahead and put my convictions on the job apps, as I figured I didn't want to waste time going past the application if the company had a problem with my record.
Funny thing is that my dad told me I'd never get a job by doing that, but I got one two weeks after my release.
Oh ya, some countries realize being vindictive twits is counterproductive. Anyways, I was just mentioning that states had their own laws here that provide a bit of protection, if not much.
The irony here is that the more honest a person is the fewer opportunities they will get. Putting this box on an application form selects for the exact opposite of its intention.
I'm sorry to hear of the issues you had getting employment. Must have been awful getting a job, hell when I left my last company with few references it was hard enough... I can only imagine how tough it must have been getting out of jail!
It was very tough getting my first job. I been with my current employer for more than 10 years, and will probably retire from here. Many people don't believe that people change. I know for sure that people change -- unfortunately not always for the better.
From what I understand, it has a lot to do with age. People just outgrow being wild. The prison system is full of 60 year olds who committed crimes in their teens and 20s who are no longer a threat, yet they remain.
I'd say once a man hits 40 or so, they have better shit to do with their lives.
Would you say that people who have been through what you have, generally change for the better? Or for worse?
I think sites like 70MillionJobs are dedicated to the proposition that they change for the better. Do you agree?
I firmly believe people change. Sorry, I know they do. And regardless of the nature of the change, it is fair to say that 10 years on, most people are not who they were before. Beyond about that mark, any prison sentence is nothing more than vengeance.
I witnessed both: people changing for the better, and people changing for the worse. I had a hard time convincing family and friends that my old self was dead. While in prison it was easy to spot those that were genuine. Those that were looking to change their ways and behavior would stick together. I saw good people (people that weren’t career criminals like me) become involved with gang activity while in prison. The peer pressure inside goes against improving yourself. Being a square in prison is much, much harder than being a bad-ass.
One thing that I neglected to say was that it was during the time I was on parole when I was unable to get a job. I got a job immediately after I got off parole. In order to meet parole regulations, I enrolled in school (two years in state university) while working part time on jobs having nothing to do with my skills. Once I was off parole the requirement of having to disclose my felony conviction was no longer. I applied for a job, checked the box that said I had a prior felony conviction, was interviewed and never asked about it. Got the job as a software developer.
Thanks-it took me a long time (15 years) before I could talk about my past. A combination of shame and fear of doors shutting in my face. When I began opening up, I discovered, counter-intuitively, that people responded with kindness and understanding. I gave them the opportunity to be humane, and almost uniformly they gave me back understanding and support. In a way, I've been very lucky.
Got tired. Really tired. Asked God for help. He did -- can't explain it any other way. I tried to change many times before but always came back to my old life style.
I did it because of issues with W10 disconnecting from my Bluetooth mouse and WIFI issues. I tried many things such as reinstalling drivers and applying fixes suggested by others that were experiencing the same problems. Also, my computer got slower: slower booting up, and slower shutting down. I'm not blaming Microsoft because it could very well be my laptop that has the problem; the fact is, however, that ever since I downgraded to W8.1 my laptop is working fine -- all over again.
I own a Lumia 925, my wife owns a Lumia 640, and we use a Lumia 520 as our home line. I realize that Windows has a small share of the mobile phone market in the US but everybody that I've ever met that owns a Windows phone is pretty happy with their purchase -- I am. Apple phones are too expensive for my budget, and I tried helping a family member with his Android device and quickly realized I had made the right decision buying a Windows phone. I'm looking forward to see how the new OS (Windows 10) works on my devices.
I was a fan of the original Windows Phone 7 and since then used WP for years (until work requirements caused me to switch mostly to other platforms).
I've been trying the Windows 10 betas on a fairly high-end Lumia (1520), and I just can't understand what Microsoft is doing. The entire system has apparently been rewritten using the "Universal" APIs (the same thing as Windows RT/10 basically).
That must have sounded great on paper, but the reality is baffling. Everything that was working great in WP8 has been replaced with half-assed implementations that feel more like second-rate Android OEM apps.
Worse, there don't seem to be any new features in Windows 10 Mobile that could offset the pain of the UI downgrade... Except that weird new mode where you can connect your phone to a keyboard, mouse and display and use Windows Universal apps that way. Is there a single Windows Phone user that asked for that?!
I loved Windows Phone 7 because it was a holistically designed system that made perfect sense on a phone. All that seems to be gone in Windows 10 Mobile, replaced by Microsoft's traditional "Windows everywhere!" platform strategy bloopers.
WP8 was also a rewrite, for exactly the same reasons. It wasn't great, but if it was kept stable for long enough then maybe partners would eventually come back to build that ecosystem.
I guess the reason for this constant rewrite-itis is that Microsoft is still really, really strong on the corporate desktop side, and they desperately need some way to leverage that on mobile. Otherwise they are just too far behind to avoid being yet another OEM.
As you said, it probably looked good on paper. They do have deep pockets however, and probably afford both one and two more rewrites and still compete. They've done it before.
> Is there a single Windows Phone user that asked for that?!
Sounds like a wonderful feature to me.
One of the things that annoys me about Windows Phone currently is that it won't play with bluetooth keyboards (like the android phone I use as my backup device does). Sometimes when travelling it is useful to be able to rattle off some messages longer than are convenient to write with the on-screen keyboard without needing to have my tablet or laptop with me (OK so I need to be carrying the little bluetooth keyboard with me, but that takes less room when folded away than the laptop or tablet).
Using it as a mini PC is going further, but in a way that I might also find useful. Hopefully in going further they have not neglected the simpler use case on their way past though...
> I've been trying the Windows 10 betas on a fairly high-end Lumia (1520), and I just can't understand what Microsoft is doing. The entire system has apparently been rewritten using the "Universal" APIs (the same thing as Windows RT/10 basically).
It's worth noting that Windows Phone 10 (or whatever the current name is) is not being released alongside desktop Windows 10. It'll be released at least a few months later, so I would expect a lot more polish and cohesiveness moving forward.
The simple problem at Microsoft and at most large organizations is that stock options and bonuses are paid out for new features, not fixing existing bugs.
Annual Commitments. There are tons of half complete projects and tooling pieces that are finished enough to check off the annual commitment objective. I constantly got nagged for tweaking and improving a backend system shim layer for transporting test data between systems instead of adding new check mark mission complete items to my list.
I'm not sure what it like under the current review system but I very much perceived this to be an issue when I was there. I'd even seen large top level objectives altered purely because it was too far along in the year when they were proposed and making those changes would have impacted another groups ability to make their commitments. Some groups in microsoft are great but there are some systemic problems over there.
This is the only part of Windows 10 Mobile that Microsoft is doing right. Practically all Windows Phone 8 devices -- even the 89 euro ultra-cheapies like Lumia 520 -- can be upgraded to 10 without rooting or any other special tricks.
Currently it requires you to install a "Windows Insider" app, but the final version will presumably be available as a regular OTA upgrade just like 8.x updates.
You can't on WP7 or older devices because of kernel incompatibilities. But pretty much everything that can run WP8 can be upgraded to the official WP10 beta through OTA.
What's the use case? Where do you have a display, keyboard and mouse but no computer attached and no laptop at hand?
I never have this problem where I'd want to blow up my phone onto a bigger screen (with full mouse-based editing capabilities). But I guess it might be more common than I imagine.
When I look at what I was doing with a computer in 1993, and what I mostly want to do with a computer today, it should be really easy to do with a phone.
It's kind of weird to me that my phone is so massively powerful but gets used only for a bit of web-browsing and light game playing.
But does that mean you should do everything on your phone?
The 1993 computer probably cost at least 2000 USD. Today, you can get a phone, a laptop, a desktop computer, a tablet and a smartwatch for less than that. That's five devices with different form factors!
Is there really a group of users whose single device is a phone and they want to connect that to PC-style peripherals?
I am currently recommending Lumias for a specific user group - non-technical users that need WhatsApp, maps and light browsing, and are on a tight budget.
A cheap Windows phone outperforms a cheap Android phone significantly (and is apparently much easier to learn the UI for that user group), and these users cannot afford an iPhone.
They lose out on the Android ecosystem and the Apple experience, but I currently believe they're the best choice at that price point (100 dollars or so). Of course, those things vary, if a new Android version is significantly better on low-end hardware I'll probably go back to recommending them (mostly because all apps in my country are Android-first).
If you go straight to China there are some "acceptable" Android phones for the sub-$50 price point. However when you compare that to the Nokia Lumia 635 which is $30-40 (often with $10 carrier discount, $50 unlocked) you get an incredible phone for almost no money at all.
I actually held one at a Microsoft store the other day, and the thing is extremely responsive and feels very premium. It is lacking a few things people just take for granted like a front facing camera, but regardless it is a huge bargain if you're shopping in the low end market.
I won't be giving up my $500 phone tomorrow, but respect where it is due to some of the Lumia phones.
With such cheap Windows phones, I wonder if there's still a possibility that Microsoft can use them to make real revenue on services, or if offering those same services on the other mobile platforms is enough.
What again, in a Services, Services, Services Microsoft, is the point of a third-place mobile platform?
Android phones have been a nightmare for me from a support point of view and for certain user groups Windows phones can – is my hypothesis – be a much, much more enjoyable experience.
My dad has some Samsung Galaxy (probably a couple generations old at this point) and doesn’t like it and doesn’t use it much beyond actually making phone calls (he even hates writing text messages). My mom has the simplest of the simple Nokia Lumias (also a generation or two old now) and she uses it all the time for all sorts of things. Browsing the web, communicating via SMS, Facebook Messenger, Whatsapp, reading email, making phone calls, taking photos (and sending those to people with exactly the messenging app she wants to use). She is able to achieve all this without ever needing help and the phone never gives her the feeling that she is not in control.
Sure, part of that may be differing attitudes of my parents towards technology (my mom has certainly a slightly greater ability to get used to and comfortable with newfangled tech), but I do think Windows phone is very friendly towards people. It’s very sparse, but if it does what you need to do then that’s a plus and it helps you feel in control.
I have a similar experience with family members buying Android phones. For a long time I was the go-to guy for support issues, mostly Android related. Most of the time, it's simply because they didn't find it intuitive enough (I cannot say Android at least on the Samsung devices) is very user friendly.
After a long struggle I got most of them over to iOS and now the less-computer-literate appears to figure out their own issues. I'd reckon the experience would be similar with Windows phones, as I've heard good things about it in terms of user friendliness.
Eveery UI is difficult for first time users. My 60+ years old dad is comfortable using Android. I even had hard time adjusting to Macbook workflow coming from windows laptops.
Yeah, we bought a 635 for my fiance's mom's first smart phone. The home screen has big obvious buttons that are a pretty ideal fit for her level of computer familiarity.
Plus, when she lost it after a couple of months, it was only $75 to replace.
I have some Lumia's (for work) and while I go in really liking them, I end up with a lot of small annoyances. I should really write them down in a blog post, but the endresult is that I pick up my Android (s4 with swappable battery) or iPhone and actually never touch the Lumia's again.
The way MS (or someone else!) would get me on board is when I can walk into the office, put my phone on my inductive loading plate, automatically triggering my monitoring to flick on and pairing with my mouse + keyboard, showing me, on the big screen, another (desktop) representation of the OS I use on the phone. I know some companies (and MS with Windows 10) are working towards that as I saw in demos, but it's still clunky and not what you want yet while the phones are fast enough (I often connect the above to my OpenPandora and work straight on it for days on end; most high end phones are a lot more capable than the OpenPandora...).
No need for the phone to be smart enough if it can just virtualize itself in a host laptop / computer. Not saying this is a good idea, but the phones not being fast enough is not all bad; what I need mostly from my phone is the files and content. The apps I could run locally.
I often drop in to a local bar, and tend to be the troubleshooter for older folks with new smartphones. I've helped out on quite a variety of devices, but my heart always sank when I bumped into the guy with a Lumia that his daughter had given him. I can't remember every instance, but I can remember turning him away in frustration with outcomes like "sorry, I've no idea why the browser won't remember your login details".
I ran into many frustrating problems with that device that I didn't find with iOS and Android (even super-cheap Android). I was extremely relieved when he rocked up one day with an iPhone, and very gladly set it up with all the apps he needed.
I Googled stats to verify this claim and you're right. Last fall, Windows Phone was on par with iPhone sales in some European countries, and in fact beat Apple in Italy (TIL)
The two things are inseparable at this point. So I don't really understand the distinction you're making, it isn't as if people buying a Lumia don't know it will be running Windows Mobile.
No, I would bet most people buy them because it's a Nokia, regardless of the OS. Case in point, my mother who seems to only buy Nokias because they used to be the best brand. I told her to buy an Android phone and she somehow found and bought a Nokia Android phone (I didn't even know they existed). It had some weird Metro skin too so that it looks like a Windows Phone but is actually an Android.
> "I told her to buy an Android phone and she somehow found and bought a Nokia Android phone (I didn't even know they existed). It had some weird Metro skin too so that it looks like a Windows Phone but is actually an Android."
I think you're referring to one of the Nokia X devices:
Maybe in some (northern) parts that still remember the Nokia brand. Otherwise, Android and iOS are the really big players, with Android being number one in Europe followed by a strong iOS. WinPhone, Blackberry, FirefoxOS, JellyOS, etc. are of little interest for the average joe buyer.
I'm getting downvoted? Sounds like a bad thing but I'm not concerned. I'm a Hacker News reader and hardly ever write comments. I'll be fine. Thanks for the heads up...
Our of curiosity, what got you buying MS phones? My sense was that by the time they had a decent phone available, most people were too invested in Android or iOS to readily consider a change. Were you a late adopter of smart phones or did you make the switch at some point?
I was using a galaxy s2 but got frustrated with android (usability and stability issues). My wife bought a lumia 710 to replace an aging blackberry, and I was very impressed with the usability. A bit later, when they did a deal on the lumia 920, i bought it, and over two years later I'm still on the same phone. Very happy with it. I'm waiting for them to release a proper high end phone again to upgrade my 920.
Microsoft made three key mistakes with windows phone after the acquisition. The first was stopping the development of high-end models. No high end model means no evangelists which in turn means price is the only thing you can compete on. The lack of profit in the lumia division is a consequence of chasing after the bottom of the market. I'm convinced windows phone is good enough to win at the high end, but microsoft had to show up first, and they mostly didn't. They made some bone-headed decisions like releasing the high end 930/icon without the one lumia-only feature (glance), while shipping that feature on low end devices.
The second thing they did wrong was messing with the OS itself to make it more android-like (getting rid of hubs and panorama views, introducing hamburger menus, app-ifying the social integration, etc...). Every change made the OS less attractive to people already using it, while doing nothing to convince those who weren't, because those people needed apps which weren't there. Oh, yeah, that's the third and worst thing they did wrong: radically mismanaging the windows app store, both towards the users as towards the developers.
I'm not the original poster, but I bought a Lumia 925 out of pure nerdy curiosity. I'd tried iOS, I'd tried Android and just wanted to see what else was out there. And I have to say it's pretty fine piece of hardware running a pretty great OS.
All that being said, I'm probably going back to Android for my next phone, simply because WP keeps lagging further and further behind when it comes to apps. If WP had the same apps as Android I'd probably buy a new Windows Phone.
Clearly you don't know what are we talking about , Compiling/Uploading your app just exact same way you already did many times for new platform/users is something most dev will do , because it don't have any burden. And as I remember they mentioned 100% compatibility , and they even support most of Google cloud service via Microsoft service's with exactly same API .
Or they could allow installing from apk or third party stores. Though that will help only the more technical users, which doesn't seem to be lumia's target market.
I bought a MS phone because my nexus 4 kept crashing with the latest upgrades. The battery would last max 6 hours, using the camera had a 50% chance of restarting the OS, the touch functionality of the screen would work 50% of the time after reboot, when the battery was under 25%, the phone would act eradically ... etc. As for iphone, too expensive. I got my lumia for 60$ on amazon without contract.
Personally, I switched over to Windows Phone from a Nexus 4 after I bought a generic Windows 8 tablet and started using the live tiles. In my opinion, compared to the iOS and Android "grid of icons", live tiles are just superior in every way. I'm honestly surprised that neither Google nor Apple have copied Microsoft here.
I'm using a brand new LG G4 as my daily driver, and I own two Nexus 7s. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the Android widgets I can set up on my G4 [1] compare in any way to the live tiles on a Windows Phone [2]. I recognize that this is all subjective, though.
Again, this is all subjective, but I'll try to explain why I prefer live tiles over Android's widgets.
1. Android widgets are huge, I can fit maybe 4-5 widgets on one page of the Android desktop. More than that, they become so scrunched that you can't get any information out of them. This is compounded by the fact that some widgets only allow a certain size unless you download 3rd-party launchers.
2. Widget design is largely up to the app developer, and a lot of widgets are ugly (subjective) or at least don't match the other widgets you have them grouped with.
3. Widgets try to be interactive, and I can't tell you how frustrated it makes me when I'm scrolling across the desktops to look at widgets and I accidentally cross an item off of a todo list, or scroll through my list of emails instead of continuing on to the next desktop.
To me, the Android (and iPhone) home screens feel lifeless and dead when compared to a Windows Phone. On WP, my live tiles are always flipping around and displaying the latest emails, tweets, facebook posts, news articles, pictures from my camera roll, etc. The Windows Phone start screen displays all of that information to me at a glance, and I can pick and choose what to do next based on the summary that I see on my start screen. On Android, though, I have to actively search for that information by going from app to app.
I think there are ways to solve all of your issues on android, including using a 3rd party home screen; but at the end of the day - these are not products that come down to measured specs against measured specs, these are products we use as an intimate part of our daily lives and as a result are subject to purely subjective factors being a core part of the decision making process.
I appreciate your opinion, it has helped me further understand why using subjective reasoning as a driving factor for technology purchases is no longer a sign of the uninformed/uninitiated, and is now instead (rightfully) simply a personal preference.
The UI was what got me hooked. I was coming off of an iPhone and loved the Windows Phone home screen. Once you get hooked on live tiles, its hard to go back.
My first smart phone was an HTC Radar running Windows 7 which was later upgraded to 7.5. My second windows phone is my current phone which is a Lumia 925. I immediately fell in love with this phone because of the camera quality (pictures and videos). My phone is going on three years and it still takes better pictures than most Android and Apple phones except maybe for the newest Apple and/or high end Android devices. I bought my wife a Lumia 520 when they became available and she immediately was able to use it -- now she owns a 640. I never owned an Android or an Apple device but most of my immediate family and close friends own one or the other giving me a chance to compare features. To this day I haven't found a reason to switch. I have tested my phone against high end Android devices and my phone is more responsive and the picture quality is always better to the point where I'm constantly being asked to share my pictures. If I can find a better phone for the same amount of money I spent for my phone ($150.00 refurbished) I will buy it.
Here's my experience: my first smartphone was a Nokia with Windows Phone 7, which I bought when my Nokia N95 was too broken to be used in public. It lasted for around 6 months until it fell off my pocket and cracked, because changing the screen was just as expensive as a new phone.
I was pretty mad at some issues (the camera would hang the phone under certain circumstances, dev tools were painful, Zune as a requirement for sync), so I got myself an Android phone. That one lasted a couple years, until the USB connector broke - since the battery was non-removable, there was no way for me to keep using it.
After having experienced both, I have to say: the experience in Windows Phone feels much smoother than Android. Yes, the development tools are still annoying, but using the phone itself has a nicer "feeling" to it.
I now have the cheapest WP 8 I could find, and so far I'm happy with it. It also seems to be more resistant to drops than its older brother.
I use osmand for free offline maps and navigation anywhere in the world. Should I be doing something different? How does this make Windows Phone special?
I was answering the question of what made me choose a Microsoft phone. Offline maps has always been a strong differentiator of Nokia, now the owner of Navteq. I can't comment on the quality and extension of Open Street Maps. I gather that you are a satisfied user of osmand, so I recommend that you don't do anything different.
Eh, I'm satisfied as to use in the US. The quality of the mapping they have for China is pretty bad... but I kind of figured it wouldn't be great from any other (english-language) provider either. Google Maps is better in some ways, but hard to access and still terrible at things like street addresses.
Anecdote: Friend of sister wanted new phone that could take decent pictures and do Web/FB stuff. Nice man in shop suggested a lower end Lumia. Friend of sister very happy, especially with camera, which indeed produces excellent snaps.
I see quite a few WinPhone screens on my daily round in UK.
I had a WP7 Samsung Omnia awhile ago. WP was an excellent, performant, and snappy to use. It was really nice and everyone that saw it liked it. However, almost no apps (that I needed), app store full of crapware (borderline malware), and slow OS updates eventually led me to Android. No regrets.
Indian Windows phone admirer here. Loved the developer preview program. Frequent updates to the OS made me feel wanted as a user. The transition from WP 8 to WP 8.1 was especially noteworthy. Sadly I lost my Lumia 1320 and switched to a cheaper Android. Would like to go back and try Win 10, but the lack of new devices makes me apprehensive.
I got a 630 to play around with WinRT and C++/CX development.
It is quite quite, specially if one compares the whole development experience with the Android wild west (e.g. NDK experience).
Sadly it has only catched on in countries as alternative to Android, where the majority of the population is not able to afford iPhones even on subsided contracts.
Their decision to provide Android and iOS bridges in WP 10 will eventually backfire in OS/2 style.
I own a Lumia icon and have been really happy with it. The cut on Windows Phone is the amount of apps available. Since they are such a small share of the market, developers aren't keen to build for the platform - even though its completely wide open right now with little if no competition.
If Windows Phone had closer to the amount of apps Android and IOS have in their stores, the phones would be doing much better. Nokia makes a solid handset and the Windows Phone platform is the first not to copy Apple's design.
As for Windows 10 on Windows Phone - I was using the developer preview for a few days and its still really really buggy. It does have tremendous potential though and I'm looking forward to seeing them work out some of the bugs, there are a ton of really cool things coming:
Work phone is a Nokia 710, running WP 7.5 .... a no nonsense simple working phone with great battery life. Informative tiles and a clean UI. I am sure WP8/Cortana would be a great improvement. Dropped it in water a week ago and it is recovering... screen is still drying out.
For personal use I have a Nexus4 and use it for camera/apps (Google Authenticator)/Google ecosystem. I prefer the simplicity of the Nokia/WP7 but for some things the Android is necessary. If Google ever ported their apps and services (Youtube, etc) to a Windows Phone I would switch.. or MS needs to create a nice equivalent.
For a different experience, I received a Lumia 640 as a gift, but I gave it away, as the experience was inferior to Android. I tried liking it for about 2-3 weeks, but eventually I gave up. My wife then tried to use it and gave up as well.
For example I don't like the design of the front-screen with the animated tiles. I find them to be very distracting and I prefer Android's model - static icons plus widgets for whenever I feel the need for some shiny stuff, but widgets don't survive for long. The notifications experience on Android is of course superior. That flat design in Windows Phone has also been annoying as it doesn't give clues on what can be touched. And as far as the experience goes, the new material design in Android kicks ass IMHO. The only serious usability issue it has are the up-front permissions system, but they are fixing that in the next version.
The other issue I had is a lack of control. Microsoft went the Apple way in restricting their phones. So apparently with my Lumia I had to ask permission from my operator in order to do tethering. I've never met an Android phone that disallowed tethering based on the whims of these operators. Google Play is also superior, even to the iTunes Store IMHO, but beyond that, I like how Android lets me install apps from third-party sources if I want it - it's just a configuration change and this Apple-style grandfathering doesn't work so well for Microsoft - their store is filled with shit, malware and trademark infringing apps. I also tried being a good citizen in Microsoft's store and tried reporting a scammy app for trademark infringement - they asked for "papers" to prove I'm the rights holder.
There's also one pet peeve I have with Microsoft - so Windows Phone still doesn't support CalDAV / CardDAV, insisting of course on Microsoft's own proprietary Exchange. You also can't change Bing's search as the default (at least in the version I had). Android doesn't do CalDAV / CardDAV by default, but you've got providers available. And Android also lets you change most things, like the search interface. Great going Microsoft, you've changed a lot.
As for the apps available, there is no contest. Like Google Maps / Waze in combination with Google Now are awesome. Nokia's Here is pretty cool, but lo and behold, they've released it for Android as well. The experience with most popular services like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube is inferior on Windows Phone. Even Skype seems to suck less on my Android.
In terms of hardware, the Lumia phones have a good price, but I want phones with good resolution. Couldn't find a high-end phone like the ones made by LG. And for a good price-quality ratio, in Android land you can also go with the Nexus devices, or OnePlus One. You can still find Nexus 5 devices and they've got a better price and better hardware than those Lumia devices.
I'm an Android user. None of your points are incorrect, but they also all apply to Android:
- Gmail receives preferential treatment
- Google cannot be removed as a search engine (inc. Google Now)
- Android can be restricted from tethering (and operators do do that).
- Google dropped CalDAV support.
None of which are "breaking" issues on Android. In fact I won't leave Android just for Google Maps (w/Waze integration), Google Now, the number of apps on the play store, and future things like Google Car (so I can drive my car's nav system with my phone).
- you can replace the search interface, I'm using Firefox Search or DuckDuckGo interchangeably with Google's Search depending on my mood. If you have them installed, it makes you first pick the default when doing the search gesture. Google Now is not customizable, but then again it's just an app.
> Google cannot be removed as a search engine (inc. Google Now)
The swipe up gesture for search/google now is easily replaced (e.g. just install Firefox and you get asked via intent if you want to use Firefox search instead). The search bar and the swipe from the left gesture can't be removed from the Google Now launcher as far as I know, but it's trivial to replace the launcher itself (just install one and the next time you hit 'home' it'll ask you which launcher you want to use).
Google's is not the only Android distribution. Try Cyanogenmod - I have been running it for years and I therefore have Android without a single byte of Google's binaries on it.
Cyanogemod is an inferior implementation of Android(pure Android as on the Nexus devices). It is very unstable and I am not the only one that has stability issues. It was across the board, not limited to a single device.
While we're trotting out anecdotes, I have heard and experienced only the opposite.
One friend in particular who was given a windows phone by his large, seattle-based employer (ahem) had no end of trouble. The UI was great, but basic functionality was terrible. The thing could never handle SMS--we had to call him constantly, just to let him know what was going on, then we all would sporadically receive 4-5 texts from him that made no sense out of context. It was a nightmare.
Often with devices of small market share, the people who purchase them are the people most likely to be happy with their purchase. That said, I think the WinPhone platform is very good, but suffers by not commanding the influence over app-makers.
It is ironic that my daughter bougth a Lumia 640 in Ohio because you couldn't get them on the west coast. They have sold out in pretty much every location. I expect mostly because Microsoft has not made very many of them to begin with, but they seem to be the most popular phone yet.
I'm sad that there wasn't a way to recapitalize the Nokia phone business and re-release it into the wild.
Lumia 925 user here. I really liked Windows 8.1. I've been trying the Windows 10 phone betas for a few months now, and the pain has been excruciating: lots of busted apps, bugs, battery life issues, missing functionality.
It seems to me Windows 10 Phone is at least several months away from stable.
A coworker just noticed that - my Nokia is about the same weight as his larger Android phone.
In my case, the phone isn't thick enough. I had problems with it slipping out of my pocket (I once went back to the car looking for it to find it on the ground getting rained on), so I added grippy skateboard tape on the back.
If I change phones, I'd do it again. Why not just buy a case? Because to get a grippy case, they're too grippy and will hold onto the cloth in my pocket when taking it out. The skateboard tape is "just right".
Someone ought to produce & sell grip-tape with die-cut patterns in it. Peace-symbol, happy face, Totoro, etc.
The answer is NO to both questions. I don't see what's fascinating about my comment. I live in Tucson AZ and I work in the IT department as an Applications Developer. My department has 30+ employees and I only know of four other people in my department that own Windows Phones.
It's fascinating to me because I've never come across such a fan of Windows Phone. The Windows Phone users I have come across have gotten them through work (at MS or related contractors).
I never considered myself to be a WP fan but I can see how I can be perceived as one. My initial decision to buy a WP was mostly driven by cost (my first phone HTC Radar was free after the rebate) and my current phone is a refurbished Lumia 925 ($150.00). I’m just not the type of person that’s willing to spend $500+ on a phone that has features I will probably never use. Like I said IMO Windows Phones give you the best value per dollar spent – an opinion that apparently is also shared by many of those making comments on this thread.
> I had made the right decision buying a Windows phone
No you didn't. Soon your device and its os will be discontinued, WP is a huge failure and it's over. You don't fire next to 8000 people when your product is a success.
When that happens - if it happens - I will buy a different phone. I feel that my investment has already paid off with the amount of great quality pictures and videos I have accumulated.
