The chance of salmonella in a dozen eggs is quite low. The chance of it in 300+ eggs is quite a bit more - even with impeccable personal cleanliness. Likewise, if I got a bit of salmonella in something I made, it would affect me and my wife - which would be unfortunate but, that's it.
If a commercial kitchen making food for 73 people gets an egg contaminated with salmonella and then spreads that to all the other dishes it's making... well, that's quite a different problem.
I also know that I wash my hands, and I sanitize every cooking surface in my kitchen daily (or more often). A kitchen with 6+ full time cooks and 70 some people helping themselves to snacks is liable to much more tracked in dirt, unwashed hands, and badly washed dishes.
One of the things I do is infuse alcohols, often in bulk for gifts. When I do this, my sanitation protocol actually changes - I pre-sanitize every vessel using bleach, and I often times do wear gloves if I'm touching anything directly.
Consider this: If you had a small cut on your hand, would you wear gloves before making yourself lunch? What if it was a stranger with a cough making your lunch, would you want them to wear gloves?
>The chance of salmonella in a dozen eggs is quite low. The chance of it in 300+ eggs is quite a bit more - even with impeccable personal cleanliness. Likewise, if I got a bit of salmonella in something I made, it would affect me and my wife - which would be unfortunate but, that's it.
Eggs are the only food that fits this narrative, and they are only (very rarely) dangerous if eaten raw. I would be more concerned about eating eggs from a holiday inn breakfast buffet.
>I also know that I wash my hands, and I sanitize every cooking surface in my kitchen daily (or more often).
I've never sanitized my cooking surface. I was taught to use vinegar as a cleaner and have never had issues (it's not a disinfectant). I haven't even had a cold in three years.
>One of the things I do is infuse alcohols, often in bulk for gifts. When I do this, my sanitation protocol actually changes - I pre-sanitize every vessel using bleach, and I often times do wear gloves if I'm touching anything directly.
A few of the things I do are brew beer, wine, kombucha, ferment vegetables, etc. I, too, used to use sanitize all of my bottles and containers. I then read The Art of Fermentation and realized that everything I was doing was moot. Lactic acid bacteria and yeasts do an excellent job of preservation, provided you give them a nurturing environment to thrive in.
>Consider this: If you had a small cut on your hand, would you wear gloves before making yourself lunch? What if it was a stranger with a cough making your lunch, would you want them to wear gloves?
The commune deserves more credit. People who abandon everything to live in a commune take personal interest in caring for one another. You're more likely to pick up something from a stranger with a cough at a restaurant, who didn't call in sick because they're still late on last month's phone bill, than someone at a commune - who could just ask another member to fill in. Keep in mind this is how society was for a long time.
Eggs, chicken, pork, even flour can be contaminated - Chipotle (a popular US fast-ish food chain) had woes upon woes until they finally gave it and started pasteurizing their flour. Dairy and meat are more susceptible of course, but even dry ingredients can come with contamination problems.
Vinegar is a decent cleaner. I use it quite a bit myself, but it's not the best choice to clean up after raw meats and some other more aggressive bacteria. You may have a good immune system, and not run into any problems - good for you, I'm glad - but that is not going to be the case for any large group of people.
> Lactic acid bacteria and yeasts do an excellent job of preservation
Preservation is not sanitation. Yeast will feed off of many things and grow, but it won't typically attack germs or viruses. Those germs will however gladly feed off of the same food you're giving the yeast. This is why aggressively sanitizing any fermenting vessel is so important - you're creating the ideal environments for bacteria to grow and you want to make sure it's only your selected bacteria that are growing.
> Keep in mind this is how society was for a long time.
That is a myth and falsehood. The work week for the average person going back thousands of years was 60+ hours. There was no vacation or sick leave. Sure, if you had a small cottage industry you might be able to ask a family member to do extra work for a day so you can rest, but for most of history children were pressed into labor at ages 8 - 10.
> People who abandon everything to live in a commune take personal interest in caring for one another
Then they should practice good sanitation and cleanliness. I'm not saying they shouldn't live in a commune, or that they're bad people - I'm saying they are not correctly practicing what we've learned in 10,000+ years of handling food stuffs for a community. If you care for your friend/neighbor/fellow commune-peer, then take a moment to wear gloves and a hair net so you don't get them sick.
>Vinegar is a decent cleaner. I use it quite a bit myself, but it's not the best choice to clean up after raw meats and some other more aggressive bacteria. You may have a good immune system, and not run into any problems - good for you, I'm glad - but that is not going to be the case for any large group of people.
Well, anything raw meats touch goes into the dishwasher. I didn't mean to construe the idea that I am re-using surfaces for raw meats.
>Preservation is not sanitation. Yeast will feed off of many things and grow, but it won't typically attack germs or viruses. Those germs will however gladly feed off of the same food you're giving the yeast. This is why aggressively sanitizing any fermenting vessel is so important - you're creating the ideal environments for bacteria to grow and you want to make sure it's only your selected bacteria that are growing.
Yeast don't preserve by attacking germs or viruses, they preserve by creating alcohol - just as LAB preserve by killing germs and viruses via ph. But yes, sanitation and preservation are different - I didn't mean to conflate them.
You don't necessarily need to bleach things to sanitize them. When we wash our hands with warm, soapy water, we aren't killing bacteria, we are reducing the viscosity of our hand oils and wiping them off. The same can be said for most cooking materials/areas.
>
vorpalhex 2 hours ago | parent | on: The Economics of a Commune in the Ozarks
Eggs, chicken, pork, even flour can be contaminated - Chipotle (a popular US fast-ish food chain) had woes upon woes until they finally gave it and started pasteurizing their flour. Dairy and meat are more susceptible of course, but even dry ingredients can come with contamination problems.
Vinegar is a decent cleaner. I use it quite a bit myself, but it's not the best choice to clean up after raw meats and some other more aggressive bacteria. You may have a good immune system, and not run into any problems - good for you, I'm glad - but that is not going to be the case for any large group of people.
> Lactic acid bacteria and yeasts do an excellent job of preservation
Preservation is not sanitation. Yeast will feed off of many things and grow, but it won't typically attack germs or viruses. Those germs will however gladly feed off of the same food you're giving the yeast. This is why aggressively sanitizing any fermenting vessel is so important - you're creating the ideal environments for bacteria to grow and you want to make sure it's only your selected bacteria that are growing.
> Keep in mind this is how society was for a long time.
That is a myth and falsehood. The work week for the average person going back thousands of years was 60+ hours. There was no vacation or sick leave. Sure, if you had a small cottage industry you might be able to ask a family member to do extra work for a day so you can rest, but for most of history children were pressed into labor at ages 8 - 10.
That's fair, I shouldn't have claimed such a broad statement. It depends which society/time-period we're looking at.
Did you know that Sandor Katz, the author of The Art of Fermentation, lived on a commune in Tennessee during much of his adulthood? The commune gave him the opportunity to write you that book and the experience that fed into how he wrote it.
If you're using a high proof liquor you typically don't need to pre-sanitize, but I typically do. You can either boil the jar for 5 minutes (timed) or rinse with bleach.
The more finely cut the fruit is, the more flavor will be absorbed.
I usually let them age for a minimum of 2 months, but up to 6 is preferred. Make sure to use ball jars with fresh wax seals and seal them while hot - once cooled, the lid should have a bit of flex to let you know the seal is unbroken. Make sure to mark contents and date on each one.
I'm most interested in doing herb tinctures (for cocktail additions) in dropper bottles. It's surprising to see that only 3 to 4 days are needed for said infusions. In your experience has this been the case? Keep in mind this would not be drank neat, but rather 3-4 drops used mostly for aroma.
I've only tried one infusion, ginger. It was grated directly into the vodka, left for ~2 weeks, and still turned out relatively flavorless. My ginger beer used about the same mount and was extremely sharp. Maybe I'll give it another go.
If a commercial kitchen making food for 73 people gets an egg contaminated with salmonella and then spreads that to all the other dishes it's making... well, that's quite a different problem.
I also know that I wash my hands, and I sanitize every cooking surface in my kitchen daily (or more often). A kitchen with 6+ full time cooks and 70 some people helping themselves to snacks is liable to much more tracked in dirt, unwashed hands, and badly washed dishes.
One of the things I do is infuse alcohols, often in bulk for gifts. When I do this, my sanitation protocol actually changes - I pre-sanitize every vessel using bleach, and I often times do wear gloves if I'm touching anything directly.
Consider this: If you had a small cut on your hand, would you wear gloves before making yourself lunch? What if it was a stranger with a cough making your lunch, would you want them to wear gloves?